Episode 1
Jonathan Emmins
Founder + Global CEO of Amplify
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING’:
Our first guest needs no introduction. He is a huge friend of Elevate, it is the amazing Jonathan Emmins. He is the global CEO and founder of Amplify, Global CEO of Wonder and Seed, and has worked with the likes of Google, YouTube, Airbnb, Nike, Facebook, I mean, you name them, they’ve worked with them. And he’s been joining the dots between people, brands and culture for over 15 years.
This session is absolute gold dust. Because we get to know the man behind the brand and we get to hear about the highs the lows of running one of the most successful agencies in the events industry. You’re not going to want to miss any of it.
Watch Jonathan on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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Hola Jonathan from 1993,
You are and will forever be equal parts geek and hedonist. Sorry - there’s no getting around it.
The good news is you’re finally beginning to outgrow the ‘school square’ tag. People are coming round to the weird music you’ve always liked and the time you spent hiding away in art class has led you to produce work you’re finally proud of. Always stay true to trying to be a good bloke, pioneering creativity, seeking collaboration and having the confidence and integrity to say no if something isn’t you or doesn’t feel right.
Sadly, that stupid asymmetrical fringe isn’t your best move, but fear not, there’s a pink mohawk (2001) and a lopsided mullet (2003) to come that will render this a relatively minor style blight. In life, I’m afraid there’ll be many more mistakes to follow, some much bigger than ill-fated haircut choices. Embrace and learn from them.They help make you who you are.
Continue working and playing hard. Squeeze every drop out of life, seeking and discovering as you look for constant stimulus. Never lose your sense of play and fun nor your ability to approach the world through child-like eyes. Stand firm. As people get older they often become serious and risk-averse. Don’t. Resist conforming, embrace different, see the funny side and never ever take yourself too seriously. Quickly learn that above everything time is the most precious commodity. There’s an understandable temptation to think everything is ‘a must to do’. But there are so many exciting choices and only a finite number of hours in the day. You must think carefully how you choose to spend your time, and who you spend it with. Work out what you stand for, who’s important to you and let that guide your choices. Every minute counts... Figure out what excites you and make a career out of it. Your love and passion for people, culture, creativity and collaboration is what drives you. Channel it. This will help you manage and overcome being a shy introvert and later in life becomes the guiding principle for Amplify, the agency you will set up in 2008 – ‘joining the dots between people, brands + culture’.At some points everyone is tested, some more than others. Take lessons from everything you do. Understand you’ll be shaped by all your experiences, both good and bad. In many cases, your most negative experiences are the ones that most positively galvanise you. Thanks to questionable management at your first agency you and a number of your future partners will bond ‘in the face of adversity’. In many ways and to this day Amplify is on a mission to right the wrongs of that previous agency and the impetus to set up Amplify as a welcoming ‘home for creative people and clients’ to come together to do their best work.
Think about where you can make a difference. You can’t be good at everything. Work with those who complement what you are good at and never be threatened by people more talented than you. In early life, focus on being a creator. In later life don’t stop that, but use your experience to help facilitate creativity and support other creators. Remember how lucky you are to have had people that believed in you, even in the times you’ve lost belief in yourself. We all have a responsibility to pass that baton on. So be generous and collaborative, give more than you take and be kind and look out for everyone. When the time comes, be a cheerleader for the next generation of creative talent.
You’re headstrong, so you’ll be the judge if any of these thoughts serve a purpose or if I’m just being blah, blah, blah. Either way, become confident in your judgement and trust your instinct. Be aware your instinct won’t always get things right but those rare times you don’t trust your gut and do the ‘sensible thing’, it never works out.
And when those key ‘life decisions’ do come around you'll hopefully know what's right or what’s wrong and what’s important and what's not.
Luckily, if you’re not 100% sure, you’ll still be surrounded by all those good, kind, clever and creative people you’ve met along the way. Thankfully you'll never have a shortage of people who you respect and trust when you also most need that all important guidance.
Be kind and never forget to have fun, Jonathan from 2023 x
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Mel Noakes: So, our first guest needs no introduction, he's a huge friend of Elevate. It is the amazing Jonathan Emmins. He’s the global CEO and Founder of Amplify, global CEO of Wonder and Seed and has worked with the likes of Google, YouTube, Airbnb, Nike, Facebook. I mean, you name them, he’s worked with them. He's been joining the dots between people, brands and culture for over 15 years.
Max Fellows: This session is absolute Gold Dust because we get to know the man behind the brand, and we get to hear about the highs and lows of running one of the most successful agencies in the event industry. It's so good. You're not going to want to miss any of it.
Mel: So, hey Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining us today. We are so delighted to have you. This is going to be a great chat.
Jonathan Emmins: Very nice to be here.
Mel: So, for the benefit of people that might not know you and Amplify, tell us a little bit about you and Amplify what you guys do.
Jonathan: Okay. I'm Jonathan, I'm the founder of Amplify. We're a creative agency specialising in experience in culture, in going of about 15 years now. So, that feels for an agency that kind of cut its teeth on cutting-edge, that feels quite old. I'm currently the global CEO but my heart's creative, so very much everything I do is about making space for the creative from the big ideas from the thought. So, very much approaching in that way. Very easy to hand over the studio to people that can run it much better that I could as well. So again, that's probably a trait that runs through, is like finding where I can be useful and kind of joining the dots.
Mel: Nice.
Max: But still loving it in the same as you were in that entry level creative?
Jonathan: Ever more, ever so passionate about it and even more so when I was slightly more involved with the day-to-day creative and ideas, you can't really cheer them along. Whereas now obviously the teams obviously a bit bigger, now, we're about 200 people now, there's so much work coming through. So good, so important and I can really be the official cheerleader for all the amazing work.
Mel: Pom-poms and all?
Jonathan: Yeah, maybe some days!
Max: Even a glance over the shoulder of going, oh that a nice piece of work?!
Jonathan: I mean, I'm still, I still like to see every kind of response pitch that goes out. I've always got my eye. Eyes on that. We had a couple of other agences. We've got sibling agencies Seed, who are student Gen Z specialists, and then Wonder who are kind of reimagining the world of B2B and B2E, and again, its just great seeing the amazing work and how that's developing. And one of the best bits of the job is just getting to see the kind of responses. But again, also, when those campaigns or shoots or experiences go live, actually seeing that go in the world. We talk about when we started, it was the pub test. It's like, if people were talking about the work, we did, our mates were talking about it, and didn't know we did it. That was the tick. Like, you know, obviously we set proper KPI’s! So proud of the work the guys do.
Mel: It's amazing to see a founder still so hands-on and being at but also know when to step back because that's quite an art, to still have your ability to shape the creative that makes it feel like it's coming out the same studio and space but like you say, make space for the creators and the people that run it and know what they're doing.
Jonathan: Again, you know, the world's full of so many talented people, I think we've got quite an unusual mix of talent in there. So again, definitely all the traditional roles you'd expect in there but also architects, and coders there is a real mix and not only that, all their passions, they bring in quite often when we're recruiting people, it's as much about what they're doing outside of work as well as inside. Because again, if you're passionate about things are doing, interesting things, you can bring all those passions in and that makes a happy team, makes the work better.
You know, for a long time we didn't have an in-house creative team. I had a fear of having a house style, you know, I see happen to other agencies where you do something amazing and then another client goes ‘cool, can I have a version of that?’ And very quickly, everything looks same. So, for the early part of the journey it was very much about working with those creative communities, that we were trying to reach out to. I think that worked really well because firstly, I think it makes it part of the marketing campaign, but secondly, nuance wise, you make sure it's very, very hard to be the nuance fuel when you've done it in a collaborative way.
We kind of went through the middle phase, when we got bit more of a team but more about the agility and doing stuff. And then finally, we realised all the best ideas was coming from inside the building but in collaboration. So even though we've grown the studio now, Jeavon [Smith] has come in to run that with the strategy side of staff Minty [Dan Minty], and Sophie [Peters] doing a great job there. I think it's very much every time we have a brief, we have two clients. The brands that give us the killer briefs but the audiences, they're trying to engage. And for us, that's a good day in the office, is when we've got a triple win. We managed to tick off the clients brand and business objectives, the creative community have got something that's enriched and more than they would do and not just put a logo on something. As a team and an agency, we've got a body of work but we're all super proud of and really, really, really, really happy to get out the door.
Mel: Nice.
Max: I've got two things. The first being as a bit of a blushing moment. I think it's safe to say in the last, probably five years or so. Amplify has been the agency, so congratulations on that.
Jonathan: To the team.There was a period where we were the go-to east rave agency and we were working with Converse, Nike, PlayStation and Red Bull, the likes of those clients, you know, kind of brands we still work with now. I work with Dr. Martins and, you know, brands that are, youth is probably my passion area about, you know, I think we have a responsibility to pass the baton on. So again, I think a lot of most exciting ideas, thoughts, energy is coming from youth, seeing the world through fresh eyes. So again, that that's really important. But obviously, as you know, again, we've just got so many different perspectives and ideas and backgrounds. I think it's really important to have an agency that reflects the exciting cultural world. So again, think about the team makeup and backgrounds because it's just the ideas get better all there or sense checked or drills and stuff and you do, you know, again, when you're allowing people to bring their magic superpowers, whatever bit of the business they are, talked about people have met their super powers but also their interests and their passions in there as well. So, at the moment, it's just some of the most amazing work is some of the guy’s pet side hustles and projects they're doing at the moment, and we can use that as a platform to promote. Not only the great work we're doing as an agency, but that the individuals are doing as well.
Max: Brilliant. A move really did happen in all that creativity and things does stem from kind of early on. So, the man behind the brand, then Jonathan schooling wise and things like that. What were you like before you got into the industry, and those kind of interests and things like that? What were they like? Describe yourself almost.
Jonathan: I would say equal parts geek and hedonist and unashamedly both, you know, painfully shy and introverted. I'm very glad we've got amazing people that I can kind of help and support and guide running in the other agencies, or within Amplify, much happier in that kind of supporting architecting kind of role than, but definitely much better speakers in the business than me. But, yeah, I guess if I take, when I went to senior school, I was the school swot. I liked the weird music, spent a lot of time hiding in the art room, which I was very happy with as well. Not particularly sporty. Sadly, I got that very late in life. But by the end of the school, it's kind of different. The weird music suddenly wasn't weird, and everyone was interested in that. So, I'm like, in a time of cassettes, copying the mixes or the album. So, or, you know, again finding the clubs of the gigs to go to and finding like rather than be the weird niche thing everyone going along. So, I saw that as a kind of encouragement on the independent spirit and then kind of taking the stage further.
Lucky to go to University, first for our family, which was in a very privileged position. I think it's a hard world out there for young people at the moment, is just in general the gap between those that have and have-nots just getting bigger and bigger. You know, we run an initiative called Young Blood, which big research film series and from 2016 where we kicked it off and it was like young people so optimistic, you couldn’t wait for them to take over. And even then, probably not dealt the best hands and then you get to 2018 and you've had things like Brexit and Grenfell and Trump and things like that. They're like, we're kind of, we’ll take it from here guys. They're not so collaborative, not so trusting. And then you know throw in pandemic and kind of cost-of-living crisis. It's tough. Tough for young people. So, you know, weaving back, when I went to university, was an amazing experience for me, I was in awe of the confidence that people that maybe from slightly more affluent backgrounds. My father told me he’d chop off my fingers if I picked up a pencil, my parents steered me away from the art college route. I end up doing history and politics, which was my other kind of love, kind of specialising in politics of race and subcultures, which I feel things like Young Blood and those kinds of things have come from that root of the analysis there.
That was the academic side, that was great and very lucky to have done that. I think the other, it was as much the opportunities that I hadn't had, say DJ, run a club night, running the in-house student training. For example, there's a whole load of other things I got really stuck into and probably help me learning how to train other people, had to overcome my shyness to do that. You know, I hadn't been snowboarding and worked out, you could get free snowboard places if you took people. So, we set up a snowball club and I was terrible and still am. But I know again, got to do things and maybe hadn't done before, that was a great experience for me. I think now again, think about where young people aren't the cost of university and everyone should have a right to higher education. University shouldn’t be a one size fits. All I think it should come in lots of different formats but if I was paying that much for it, I would have just been getting my degree done. I wouldn't, I'm not getting side-tracked by all these other things. I would have been working even longer in Safeways to pay for it. Shout out to Safeway, so I think I learn as much about life working in the supermarket. So again, shyness and things and stuff like that. Anyway, we need to look after younger people better.
Mel: Better, we do and it's really interesting, you said a lot of things in there and it's really interesting how somebody who came from a painfully shy starting point and feed more towards maybe being on the introverted side. Ended up being quite entrepreneurial, running businesses, taking people off snowboarding, obviously left an agency to go and start your own. Seemingly like I think we could probably do this a little bit better and how do you go from painfully shy to running one of the biggest experiential agencies in the UK. That's quite a journey.
Jonathan: Well, creativity. I think that was, I had no burning desire to necessarily run my own thing or do my own thing. However, working at the best of times, worse of the times agency, where, you know, there was some great stuff, it was just big, we did some great stuff there, but it was the best of times, worst of times. It was kind of have some key things, we were mainly doing youth marketing and culture for that. But why should that just be for young people? The time where, don't get me wrong, I love TV ad, but the 30 second spot. was king and everything else was thrown to the other channels. Why can't we come up with big brand ideas that work across multiple channels, measurement was the geeky bit I was worked out, you know we did a lot of work pioneering, untraditional forms of marketing which quickly become the traditional brand experience, social digital. And again, we're doing a lot of creative technology at the moment doing anamorphic, there's the web3. I love Pioneering new stuff, but you also need to take the clients on the journey and do the measurement, the research. So, there was an opportunity there we didn't quite know how to, also wasn't that well run. It was like we didn't necessarily know how to do it, but we definitely thought there was a better way there. Now for me, is it was quite a frustration ultimately why set it up and was very lucky things fell in the right place and so on and my business partners were older, they had different experiences. They believed in me when maybe I wouldn't believe in myself. Certainly, but actually at the old agency quite a few of my now business partners work there. Dan was doing the pr side thing. Now, our Chief Strategy Officer, Marcus [Childs] now actually our Chief Client Officer leaves, Liz our managing partner.
Mel: They keep everyone on the street.
Jonathan: Yeah, so again we were there. So essentially as the agency grew, they all took massive pay cuts to come and work, you know, and we got the band back together. Marcus, for example, was the first to come over and he was being groomed for an Omnicom agency. He got offered double the amount of money, he is like “no, I'm going to say no”. And then when he said, no, that time, they were going to offer a Mini Cooper, the new Mini Coopers around that time. This shows my age there as well. They threw one of those in as well, I was like “dude, no, it's coming”, and I'd like to think the calm or in there, because obviously, hopefully we're all enjoying what we're doing a lot.
Mel: And all still together, which is a testament to that camaraderie, that creativity, that thing you've built.
Jonathan: I think as we've grown up now, we talked about having a family vibe, which is. But we've now got ahead of people and culture and Stacy, and she is very straight down the line with us. And tell us, nice thing about, you know, I wouldn't lose that camaraderie and you spend so much time, you know we've grown up together again and lots of generations coming through as with, again with the family. So still get some of the occasional bickering, sibling bickering or competitive and things it is. So, definitely the spirit though. Like probably we need, as we were growing up there. But, you know, I've got all the guys that set up the global offices. For example, who has been long-time Amplify, Gareth who was a head of production setup Australia in 2018. I was in Sydney last week with him. Mark and Bonnie doing the LA office. Mark, I think he has been with us ten or eleven years. Bonnie was employee number three. She's on a third stint. Amplifier comes in threes as well. She'd gone off and done other things, and that's great. I think we've got a lot of that, where people are going off and doing other things. And then finally Nico, a very suave and sophisticated Frenchman has decided to rather run it from London setting up Paris and he sat out there and, you know. Yeah, and we were lucky to do things. Like do a lot of stuff and PlayStation out there, doing night at the Louvre with Airbnb, just doing some stuff, Moulin Rouge. But again, winning some fairly French, seminal French brands that were just about to do some work with as well. So yeah, again, it's lovely for me. That's part of the journey seeing you've grown up together or be massive but nice seeing people smashing it in what they're doing.
Max: So, did you actually take the initiative then to start the business, or was it a collective?
Jonathan: I did, I think. So, coming back to the best of all and worst of times.
Max: Yeah, I had a follow-up as well.
Jonathan: I guess, when we were agency without the right briefs and the right relationships or the right clients you can't do the best work. So again, in that agency I went out and got a lot of, I didn't want to work on those clients. I went out and got my own and that was kind of the guys there as well. So that was a big thing. There was actually a recruiter, and he was like tell me three places you want to interview at, and I will give you three wild cards. You have to do one for each of those. It's like, you know, again I didn't even, it didn't even occur to me that the recruiters works on commission. I don't know how it works. I'll just say, oh, it’s nice to set up those interviews. But through that process again, one was to be an MD of another agency and take over, kind of take over the role there. One was a design agency and kind of building out their capabilities and the last one was Anton, who's now my business partner and kind of incubating whatever I wanted to do within that, which was the route there.
And I think that worked for me because you are defined by the great work you choose to do. You are also defined by the work you choose not to do. And I think that having that control and I knew the only way we'd really have that control is, if kind of did the right thing. So, that was a creative frustration there. Along the way that's been tested. We're in a very lucky position now, where most of our work is inbound long long-term client relationships, but guessing those growing years, where the first launched the brand until about three years, I think kept under code name for the first year, then it was Amplify which was a temporary thing. We didn't even have a website, a website was year three. I think there's a slightly different time, slightly trickier to do website at that time.
It might vary but we just built up this client base and a lot of it was just kind of people with work with and doing some great projects. So actually, when we did get around to announcing ourselves, we actually had like some really nice, big clients and a great body of work. So again, it'll give us a little bit of space to grow up. Anyway, the point about that was along the way we launched a big confectionery brand. It was a really fun one to do again. Number one, Roundtree Randoms still got a soft spot, my kids like it when we go in the shops and that makes me proud. Anyway, we got offered a lot more work from the parent company of that. And I'm sure we would have done that work well, and delivered it brilliantly, but it was taking us in a slightly, almost the antithesis of where we'd set out to be and although at time we could have definitely done with the billings and the money from it. We took the decision that, you know, that wasn't there and that's something we carry on like, you have projects and things we always kind of do.
Jonathan: So again, trying, it’s a way we can make a difference. I think that’s the thing.
Mel: But I think it takes real bravery, doesn’t it? Like you said, especially in the phases, to say yes to everything feels like the natural state.
Jonathan: I think now maybe we would take on some of those briefs because we’re in the portfolio of what we're doing. I think we were to bring more people with different skill sets and things in there and like the team would have done. But I think when you've got less work to define yourself, you think carefully about a small team again. How do you deliver less, less better? And again, that's what you get, two pitches and we do one and those early days. And we just focus on one and just do that. Just make sure we win that one rather than spreading ourselves. I mean the guys are amazing out there. What's he doing? Yeah, we thought we were good before the pandemic. We got very good over the pandemic. We've slightly relaxed our stance. We don't really pitch but we’re doing quite well at the start of 2020, definitely pitched on anything that was going and any opportunity through those slightly awkward pandemic years.
Max: You were through the recruiter, you know, almost opportunities like MD Roland things. So, that's quite a big difference from going into your commercial career. If you like, you know, four, five, six years later then to be getting those kinds of MD opportunities and you're saying there's obviously for the good and the bad of previous business. I suppose one of those, you clearly kind of grew and earned your stripes, I supposed in that. What were some of the better bits of learning versus some of the worst? And the reason why I ask is, sometimes and personal experience with the show is that actually almost learned more from the ways of not to do things, or sometimes those examples of going, right, we'll do it that way. But it's definitely not the right way or the better way.
Jonathan: And we're always honing our insiders, always striving to be better and take those references, like we're doing quite well against the bigger agencies. Actually, I think where it's exciting is when you look at the kind of smaller agencies coming through, that for me is where I look to for the youth, probably the you think again in a different manifestation, then when you see the young bucks coming through. And again, that’s we're looking at things differently and again, why we need to have a rule team, stuff like that. Yeah, in many ways it's a revised emulation. The best bits about some of the last agency, which was about a kind of early curse about using experience as a comms platform and using culture there, but many ways of trying to right the wrongs on it. Definitely shaped by experiences, good and bad, often bad, can be more powerful, I think maybe even a good experience because good experience, you're emulating it, a bad experience, you're trying to rally against it. And again, with us as an agency level where you've got individuals coming in and they've enjoyed some things and didn't like doing this way and we could try and create a space to do it or is, you know, as you try new things that the people generally know what they do. You know, how to make a success of things. Sometimes, it's a bit guiding and thinking or getting a few more heads on things, but process for someone that's creatively different driven processes quite a key thing. And something we always look at and I, my dad was a graphic designer, and my mum was a legal executive and I think that's where we got the tip, the T-size of the left brain, right brain type thing. For me, I think, again, I don't want to over process things or make things bureaucratic, and you can’t just turn into a production line and that's definitely the right thing to do. But if you get good processes in place, it’s kind of can, the firefighting, the stress and stuff and that's where you are always looking. So again, that's why you got to have lots of different minds and different perspectives, spectators to do it, it should help things, but I guess when you see sometimes the bigger agencies that you know, making it, we're still relatively small, it's easier. We can be really nimble agile teams. And I think that, you know, definitely over the particularly from Q1 2020 onwards, that's become even more powerful.
Mel: It’s interesting because over your career, obviously, you've spanned a lot of different kinds of challenges as we all have. We're all sitting here, sort of similar age, similar style, going through relations. Yeah, Max is a bit younger. I know, I have to keep checking his passport, I’m like how young?
Max: The grey hair is deceptive, I promise. It was a very uphill paper round. It was really hard.
Mel: Obviously, as an individual working in a company and then somebody running a company facing those challenges. There are some things that you approach probably quite differently. So, what would you say has been one of the biggest learnings, or challenges that you faced and how have you handled that?
Jonathan: So, we're always people first. We're only as good as the talented individuals that choose to call Amplify home. People have a choice how they spend their time and energy and we're grateful for when people spend it with us. We are only as good as we fulfil their ambitions and vice versa. And new offices, new departments, new areas that hopefully that gives people the chance to grow and evolve.
I guess probably if you talk about challenges, the pandemic very quickly and as we will remember it's like, kicked in and everyone's being packed off. I remember, phoning up G in the Sydney office obviously morning and night and explaining things like an abstract concept and by the time, I woke up the next morning it kicked in there as well. As you know, people forget how quickly all kicked in. I think we took a decision very quickly. We built up this amazing team and Squad. We were lucky we kept a lot of the profits, and the majority of the profits were kept in the business. So, we did made Investments, but we have that there and we knew, I guess no one thought at that time. I mean, it's going to last quite as long but we made a statement. I think on 1st of April, I think it was that we, you know, that we were, we weren't going to make any redundancies. We're going to keep everyone on. And that was even people that had only actually started that week which I think relax everyone. They saw that and we, the comms, we were very clear with the comms, and I think as a leadership team, when everything's going well. We spent a lot of time together. UK management team being really key in that as well, when you're doing things well, it's dividing conquers, you know what you're doing. I think it was one of those things where we all came together again, which we hadn't done for a while and it whilst for lots of reasons, no one won the pandemic actually, as it was kind of amazing in stark contrast. It's an amazing experience. At every level, everyone brought their A game. The creative team were sprinting a marathon on there. Again, knocking these things out, as working with, the other partners kind of came the other opportunities in.
Meanwhile, the live team were doing more shoots and doing other things in there as well. And we just bonded, and we did try to be calm and reassuring voice, did lots of webinars. Try to guide our existing clients, actually won a lot of new clients along the way. So, whilst 2020 wasn't the year that Q1 has promised actually 2021 took a while to build out. We actually end up doing amazing things, lots of global broadcast. We did the PlayStation 5 global launch, which was amazing, particularly would have been amazing any way but it was amazing. When, I think it was 25 cities and all of them where in lockdown. So, we were shoot doing the shooting those, editing and get them out on social channels and for me a creative.
Again, when you have those challenges, I was looking at Sydney last week, looking at some of the work, Australia did again, really innovative work because you have these new constraints in any way with the people, I guess everyone just the bonds build. And as we've emerged out of that, you know, you've got, we've built up again, we're lucky we've commercially. And as a team we doubled in size since 2020. We so we kept all our superstars on, and we've managed to get lots more superstars.
So again, as I said probably part of that was all the other areas that we'd invested in, suddenly so more important. So, whilst live was on hold all the other areas grow and probably the view of take on experiments, which is always been more about on always on relationship rather than just, you know, pop-up or it's got activation, which I know part of the mixing when we think about that longer term relationship which allowed us to do things in a different way. And I think for us as strategists and creatives, it's more exciting. And I think that's carried through, I think as things go back we're trying to keep pioneering and pushing in different areas as well. We're just about to launch a new initiative called World Building, which is all about the evolution of brand building. I think that for us is so exciting. It reflects where our work is going and where it is cutting and where it's going as well. So again, there's a number of thoughts there, we work on a lot of brands where it's friends that have been behind the screens, a lot of the big kind of tech companies and suddenly how do they behave when be on there? So, a lot of brand guidelines quite 2D in static.
Mel: Don’t know what you mean!
Jonathan: I’m telling you that actually the world is actually real 3D fast-moving and co-authored with the fan base. That was one of the key points. So, we kind of got work there again, the advances in technology, consumers have been offered different choices. How do you build a brand that kind of leans into those as well? And then on top of that, you know, the advances in technology, like the web three, and AI stuff you, we need to think clever or how we build those brands and I think, for me, that's been particularly exciting. So, obviously we're lucky to work with PlayStation, activation Fortnight, big gaming companies, Netflix, Prime video, Apple, we've got big IPs, but a lot of brands, Nike have built all their IPs and again, thinking about how we build that as well. So, again, that's taking us in a really interesting direction.
Max: So, you mentioned in your letter about being positive or positive to being quite important and things like that, if you’re being honest, in terms of the pandemic, then obviously you've mentioned as a business you are well setup, and you adapted quickly to things, how hard for it realistic in for you as suppose as a CEO and as a kind of a global head? How tough was that leading from the front, but in, I suppose a time when you had no idea quite the extent of what was happening. Again, even with your glass half-full.
Jonathan: Yeah, I was just about getting the team through on what we built. So, there was a job to do. So, maybe there was a bit of a week of adjusting and reading the plans.
Max: Did you have your quiet spot in the house where you are?
Jonathan: Gareth [Davis], runs the Australian office who was, again, when we set that up, our first international office through that period. He was my first call in the morning and my last call at night. Again, he was my first call in the morning and my last call at night, as we are doing fairly long days. It was quite punishing. Cerebrally quiet challenging, you know is it was a different way to use creativity and solve our problems, I think we just had a responsibility to the team. I think that that was key and then quickly seeing the challenges and opportunities. Very quickly we were doing these amazing global broadcasts and we shot a TV, see for Mitsubishi in America. We've kind of gone the other way into TV series rather than the traditional way. We just got a campaign that's about to come out, where the whole campaign and the by products are TVC and I think that's quite a nice metaphor for where Amplifies is now.
Mel: I’m happy you have someone to guide you through that process because I think a lot of the time people assume much of the top of a business and you kind of know it all. But have you got people that you turn to, and did you turn to those people through that time for advice or guidance.
Jonathan: So yeah, obviously, as I grow, partners come on board. The kind of management teams in all the territories come on, and they obviously played a key role. So, we're all supporting guiding, but I would say everyone, every level kind of had a role in that as well. I think it was a hard time for the industry. I think again, everyone rallied round and supported one another. And again said, it's undemocratic. Some agencies hit harder the supply chain really badly. You know that's the victim, you know, I think the real victims there as well. So, I think again, but a lot of it common sense and that's when you bring your A-game, we've been vaguely useful. I think the rest of the time go back to being a cheerleader but that was time where he kind of had to do that. Yeah, so it was a joint effort.
Max: So, if you've not been, I suppose you've had samples of varying different guys and things but flipping that or perhaps I'll ask it a different way, has there been anyone that has inspired you then or you looked up to or even had them as a mentor throughout that kind of Journey? Seems incredible that you have gone on this journey.
Jonathan: Yeah, there's lots of people who inspire me and I can wax lyrical about those kinds of journeys, As well as the kind of partners and Amplify general and the leadership teams. Anton, Neil, Anton, who's the chair roll and Neil, who's CFO. Again, when I left the last place, I definitely wanted to be with people I respected, who were good, kind, and respectful outside of work, as much as inside work. I think again balance and I can see they were good guys successful and obviously that they have been very good with me and the other partners are clearing stuff out of the way, so we could get on with making the work rate if and that sort of stuff and certainly Neil, the CFO was very important, suddenly we were working, I was, you know, working with seed or Australia as we were trying to look after them and guiding it, I was doing numbers stuff, a whirring thought as well and we're all kind of rallying around. But those two, you know, again everyone brought their A game but the calm and the smart, the bit older as well. They have a bit more experience as well. When I was going through that courting period and introducing you got lots of offers and people playing smoking and all that kind of stuff. And I see when I met Anton, he was obviously very successful. He just told me about all the things that hadn't gone quite so well. But double-sided this team had spacing in Covent Garden in this last agency and then there was a fire but they hadn't changed in short, he would go through all these other things. And the nice thing is everyone's going to make mistakes and he was almost like, see it clearly successful. But actually, if I can avoid repeating, some of those mistakes are and I make plenty on my own. So, we've got, that's something we still try and do now and definitely when we were chatting to other agencies that may be coming in or other thoughts are not pretending, we've got all the answers, often they got better things and ask. But again, if we can share recipes for success but also, it's a haven't gone too well, you know, yeah, that helps you know, collectively, that's stronger together better together, kind of mentality. Sharing those ideas and influences.
Mel: Bigger pants on a nail.
Jonathan: Yes, exactly.
Mel: So, whilst I desperately want to ask you all your mistakes. We’re not going to ask you to reveal all your challenges. I'm going to change tack, as I can see Max has exactly the same question in his head, tell us all the challenges. But obviously you, as a parent, how has that shaped your view of running an agency and has that changed the way that you approach work and stuff with your two gorgeous little ones running around.
Jonathan: Yeah, definitely. You know there is a different context on things as well. So, maybe back, so when we started Amplify and Anton and Neil had kids and then Lee, who was at the last agency, he had been there, he'd had a kid at the last agency but he was only one. So, at that time we thought we were so sympathetic and helpful. And obviously, limited frames of referencing. None of us have been parents before as well. So, remember, six months into having Milo, who is my eldest, now 10, basically going up to lingo. I’m really sorry, we will try to be really helpful and yeah and in there and I think again as we've grown up as an agency and that's nice because you see, for me, that's the privilege, you get to see people, you know, getting their flats, engaged. Therefore, hopefully support through some of the not-so-good stuff. But obviously, there's all these kinds of key moments and stuff in there and obviously kids being one of them. I think again, it just changed the chats on a Monday morning about sleepless weekends. And I think I was definitely from about the age of 16, I didn't go to bed most weekends and I thought.
Mel: Have been training.
Jonathan: How tricky, was using the working week to recover in between because of the cumulative effect there. So, I guess, sleep, you know, getting the Monday chat, the sleepless weekend. Some because not always the younger people, sometimes the older people occasionally go to do it, they've been out having fun. I say she should and then there's the other half of “I had the sleep this weekend because of a little people”, that's nice because I think we had 13 babies in 2021.
Mel: Oh, my goodness, a lot I didn’t know about.
Jonathan: I think we had one a month, at least one a month, every month, for up until October, or something like that. So, clearly the pandemic people got busy, but there's just so many more parents that are sharing their kind of experiences. We've obviously got better policies. That was one of the first things we looked at coming out of the pandemic. What was good five years ago definitely wasn't good. And we're a bigger agency, it would see more things. So again, hopefully we're better, whether you're a parent, you're new into your career, you've got more reference points in there as well. So definitely try to do that. For me, it's possibly to put a balance in there. There is, you know, less away and devices, particularly 30, travelling well with work but in particular going on holiday, I was just really into work, work or raving or culture about whether those were the things there. And I think, obviously for me, it's added a lovely perspective jobs, I should just wrote the intro to the world building but we’re just going to do and it's got reference to my talk about how people exploring worlds, why is very music-related, my partner's more about kind of, keep fit and Peloton, and that side of stuff, but they were very pleased to be named checking Milo because of finding amazing creatures on Pokemon go or Fortnight or beating me at FIFA, which I'm terrible at gaming. So, it's very easy to thrash me. I ended up in goal virtually as well as ending up and goal when I was at work. Actually, quite good and goal in FIFA, but not so good in real life. And then my daughter who's always crafting, making things, so watching YouTube and stuff. No, it's just really, you know having, I've gone on about youth and stuff, but looking through things through a child's eyes, that's really important, we kind of, as we grow older, we kind of lose that magic. And I think particularly around creatives and stuff is really important. We kind of, you know, there's so much happening in the world here and it's just trying to sometimes simplify it down or look at a fresh eye.
Mel: And you know what? You mentioned something in the letter that was really lovely about this sense of play and never you're losing that because that's a mistake. And you really see that actually come through in a lot of amplifiers work that we've seen is like the Louvre and recently, the Lego playground that you guys did at open American. That sense of fun and play is really president.
Max: And kindness to that as well. Because there's people who do know you, it's, you might have this perhaps thought of what a global CEO might look like and you're almost the polar opposite of someone that's quite humble, kind, playful..
Jonathan: Most people are nice, aren't they? I've got to believe, most people are good and even, you know, you don't always know the background of what people are going through. So, I try and, you know, again, see the best in stuff, best in people and try. And, you know, there's definitely times where I've doubted myself and people believe in you. And I'm not saying everyone might believe with has always kind of gone right. But definitely nine times out of ten and it's just to get to see people, you know, whether it's in amplifier or amplify alumni and whether off and doing other things, that's pretty special clients or feel very privileged to do a job but I enjoy that links back some beliefs and passions and, you know, even on a trickier day never ungrateful for that.
Max: Well, kind of, you've kind of answered already as well, but I was going to say peeling back and I suppose the Amplified brand is to Jonathan, is too kind of why do you do it, why do you kind of get up and have that drive and you know and still chase it?
Jonathan: Who else will let me ask as many things in there as well, so again there's obviously whether it's direct still very involved Amplify key initiatives. Occasionally, add a useful comment on work and things like that. Probably have some rolling of the eyes of the studio, the strap. When I'm trying to be useful and stuff on there as well. But yeah, I still feel very in touch, get to work with a lot of communities, talent, things that are naturally petrified. First one thing, what happened to the difference in children, free having children. I could drive, I could be in an Uber around Shoreditch or whatever. And I would know every artist on, only the flyer posters or what was going around and then probably a little bit into our conversations, couldn't recognize some of the ones on the bottom. And there, then it got to the point where some of the headliners, I wasn't quite known there. That was quite humbling. So, obviously music is still an obsession of mine there as well. So, try to keep my hand in there as well. Again, it's yeah. It's, you know, every kind of group generation subculture having their own music trends and we moved away from Dalston but also my partner's going. It's not as though you're going to the nest for the 23-year-olds, I just like to feel as though it’s there, you know, clearly the energies, it’s a rhetorical thing, isn’t it? You get all the energy together and in the right things, amazing things can happen, I think.
Max: With that and referring back to the letter dead and the Crux of the conversation I suppose or the climax, if you will, is, you have led and you know a brilliant, interesting kind of life upbringing career and do incredibly well. Today, exactly. If you were to and there's a bigger question to follow, but give yourself any reminders or, you know, if you were to kind of any key points and when were those key points be that you would have a little word of yourself and what would you be saying to yourself in that kind of career Journey that you've had?
Jonathan: Probably, it's about time. Energy is the key thing. Time is the most precious commodity, use it wisely. Think about who you spend it with, how you're spending it in there as well. I think it's easy with hindsight, some of the things you spent your time on. Possibly later on in life, you kind of think more carefully, as long as you're thinking about it, you’re not going to get everything right. I think that's important. The people you surround yourself with and choose not to surround yourself with and that was probably a lesson, I learned there, and then, yeah, the energy thing is important and a client agency world often we think about time and things are judged on time or time sheets and things like that. And actually, it's on outputs and thinking about the bigger things. And I think that's really important when we think about KPIs and behaviour shift.
Go back to Neil, there's one thing. I've heard it a lot since, I think he's not got exclusivity on it, but he was first, you know, very clever man, financially astute and stuff. And I think he was challenged once about doing something. He was like, well it's taken me three. It didn’t take you that long. And he's like, it took me 30 years for this to only take me five minutes. I think the other areas of probably about trusting your gut, and I think maybe this is about being too serious sometimes and overall, in that gut thing. I'm not saying my gut has got it right every time, there's definitely examples, haven't but definitely, every time I've tried to overall my gut and be over sensitive doing something that hasn't worked out, but listen, listen to that and have confidence in that. Hopefully, you'll know the right moment.
And then probably the last bit is about Karma and passing the baton on. I think whether you believe in karma or not, isn't it a nice way to live? I've moved from pink mohawk to slightly older now, and less mohawk, and have move from creater to facilitator, but passing the baton on and, you know, as with Elevate, you have obviously, got senior people and you've got junior people in there and I think it's a very reciprocal thing in there as well. You know that it's not just the younger people learning from the older people. They can guide and do it. But it's really enriching for, you know, the older people within the mix as well. And again, and seeing the staffing talking and sharing and stimulating. And again, just making sure you've got lots of points of reference to make sure your thoughts, you're bouncing around ideas that kind of make keep your mind Nimble. So yeah, so definitely.
Max: Yeah. So that then brings us nicely on to the last question, which is the big one and is the structure crux of this whole conversation. So, what's that one piece of advice that is so good or so bad that you need to pass it on?
Jonathan: Yeah, I think it is. Time is the most precious commodity, you only get to use it once, you know. Think about you, just make sure you're thinking about enjoying it. Thinking about it, I'm making, getting involved, making your opportunities. I think everyone, there's an element of luck and being in the right place, but you can do, you know, I think, but positive vibes out and hopefully some of those will come back as well. So yeah, it is definitely about using your time wisely.
Max: Brilliant.
Mel: Thank you so much.
Jonathan: Thank you.
Max: Well, what a conversation of positivity.
Mel: Yeah, I wanted to say it, I think there's so many nuggets of gold in there for people to take away from and I think it's just brilliant to hear the story behinds such a successful agency in the people that made it and, you know, in the spirit of what we've done, like some of those learning, some of the journey and it's just been wonderful to hear some of the things you shared about passing on in the spirit of amplify. So, thank you.
Jonathan: It's the same spirit as Elevate.
Max: And yeah, passing the baton on and sharing those as well. So, like minds.
Mel: Thank you for having us.
Max: Thank you. What an incredible conversation that was, right?
Mel: Oh my God, you know, it's really lovely because we both know Jonathan really well and have been fortunate enough to know for so long. You sort of take it for granted what a lovely guy is, and I think people that are listening. I hope they understand that he's been the same for 15-20 years, like that authenticity. And that sense of curiosity and creativity, and his love of people has never changed. Actually, and even getting to the top of Amplifier, an Amplifier being the agency they are. It’s exactly that same ethos and exactly the same character as he was when I first met him quite a few years ago.
Max: Yeah. And it's the same really for that whole kind of passion point and obviously creative and music and culture and youth being that first kind of role and business that he was in all the way through, then to now, and it echoes in everything that he was saying, what I found really interesting as well, is in some of those moments where perhaps it was a bit tougher or didn't know, is that they were some key people for him that have always been an amazingly, what? 15, 20 years later, still those same people and pillars really that he kind of relies on and talks to.
Mel: You know what? I really loved is that because I think knowing most event profs and I hold my hands up on the same being such control freaks, being able to curate the work and be able to sort of offer guidance and support but know when to step back and being able to facilitate a space for others. I think that that's such a lesson for so many leaders out there. And it's one that I struggle with probably on a daily basis of what's the right balance and how do you make sure that the works remains to the quality you expect? But like you said like not having a house style. So, you have the freedom and creativity to be truly pioneering and do different stuff. And I thought that was definitely. I'm going to take that away and big bold letters in my diary for sure.
Max: But doing that scale because that's the challenge, right? When it's in a smaller boutique business and agency. It's easy, you're owning and you're controlling what you see, you've then potentially got five tiers of management in between some of the younger creatives that he mentioned, those more disruptive maverick type creatives as well. So, I think that's amazing. And lastly, for me, it was some of those takeaways, those bits of advice and he had loads of it. Really, really good staff, even if we ask for one, but all of the good ones, where he was saying about that timepiece being so important. But the authenticity and passion about doing what you believe in, saying no, and having the courage leaning into the discomfort sometimes, of having the courage to say no to the right things, if it doesn't feel right.
Mel: And I must have been so hard right early on, I mean, you know, you're building your own business as well, like the need for that financial security and stability. It must have been almost easier to say yes at that point. And interestingly, he was like now it's easier because at that time it was about staying true to who you are. I think so much of what I took out is in him writing back to his younger self and thinking about the things that really inspired him. There was so much of him that stayed true. So even becoming a CEO and running a company. So, much of that ethos and his vulnerability and stuff has remained and I thought that was a really interesting point and I loved obviously, he's a massive Elevate supporter and we be remiss not to bring it back to Elevate, that this real sense of him trying to create a space and it passed the baton on. I mean, we talked about sending the Elevate back down, which is why we called Elevate, but that sense of passing the baton on and I loved that he was thinking about that, not just in terms of his agency and his space but for the industry and how excited he was by some of the sort of new starters and the new entrants mixing things up. And I thought that was really inspiring and something perhaps that people wouldn't necessarily, imagine that a CEO would be in this space.
Max: I agree. And the last point for me is on that, is that the unexpected, is that he is an extrovert, no sorry, an introvert. Yeah. And with that, I think we have all perhaps, you know, we have as an audience and the event professional communities thinking that it's extrovert, overly confident, you know, out there, kind of big personal brands that are the ones defining and refining what success looks like and things and it doesn't have to be like that. And it has in my mind, what I defined as a successful CEO, kind of reshaped what that looks like and the characteristics of who it is that takes to make a successful business.
Mel: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that finally for me, that, that piece of surrounding yourself with people, like being humble enough to know where you're strong and where you need to rely on other people or bring other people in and celebrating their success, you know, joked about the pom-poms. But Jonathan is actually a brilliant cheerleader for so many people in, not just his agency with the industry. And I think that's a really lovely quality. There was just so much to take away from that conversation. I could have talked all day.
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