Episode 9
Jen Bonassera
Global Events Director
at Charlotte Tilbury Beauty
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘IF I COULD TELL YOU JUST ONE THING ’:
Our guest on this episode is Jen Bonassera, Global Events Director at Charlotte Tilbury Beauty where she leads a global team creating aspirational events around the world.
Formerly Global Head of Experiences at Soho House and Global Director of Events for Burberry, Jen has 15 years experience in luxury fashion and lifestyle.
She has honed her skills delivering an enormous variety of events from red carpet parties, world-class runway shows, in-store events and VIP brand experiences on the global stage.
Jen makes her own luck by working hard and having fun and says there is so much beauty and so much learning in all the small moments of life.
Watch Jen on YouTube or listen to her on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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Dear Jen aged 18 (2005)
You’ve just had one of the best summers of your life with your best friends around you, exam results done, girls holiday.. now you’ve had a taste of it, that sense of freedom and adventure will stay with you for a long time. You’re about to head off to Loughborough Uni – the unknown awaits but I’m proud of you for feeling excited for the new chapter. That quiet confidence will take you far, but it’ll also be one of your first life lessons, navigating being a big fish in a small pond, to being in a much bigger pond. Just be yourself as your ability to engage with people and chat to anyone will prove invaluable during this time.
The next few years at uni will be the best you’ll ever know. Your girlfriends become your family away from home. They are some of the absolute best. Philippa, Peri and the brilliant women around you will bring you back to life in about 12 years time. You’ll start to realise how big the world is and how much of it you want to explore. You’ll be curious, your creativity will come through, and the confidence you start to feel will surprise you.
Give the musical theatre thing a try! But don’t be worried when the stress and pressure gets too much. It’s not a bad thing that your empathy towards people means this is no longer a route for you. It’ll actually lead you onto what ends up being an amazing career and your early love of drama and performance will serve you well – you’ll continue appreciating this in the love of live events, bringing people together, creating moments of beauty, craving the buzz and adrenaline of being part of a live moment, and feeling an audience’s reaction to something you’ve created. The next decade will show you a great love, you’ll move to London and follow your dreams.
Deep down you’ll also be battling with very low self-esteem and quite a lot of anxiety – you won’t realise these feelings are what they are until your early 30s. You’ll navigate some big decisions and huge heart break with grace, even though it’ll be one of the hardest things you’ll ever go through – extreme anxiety, sadness and guilt. Know that this too shall pass. And there is always a way out. I recently learnt that the Irish have a way to express their feelings – ‘Sadness is upon me’ – I love how this means we’re not identified by an emotion. You’ll think that these emotions own you during this difficult time, so I wish I could’ve told you this at the time to spare your suffering and grief, and take away some of your pain.
As you move through this period, you’ll sense that you’ve been trying to fit into a mould. You have a calling to spread your wings and take a big risk. The biggest lesson you’ll learn during this time will be to absolutely trust your gut. And to start owning your own gold. Know that you are the type of person who has a big heart, and your warmth radiates to make people feel big. You’ll recognise that you’re working for someone who makes others feel small in order to make themselves feel big. People like this are not your people – move on.
You’ll be surprised by your ambition and drive. Keep your head down and make your own luck by working hard and having fun. Remember it’s not done until it’s done.
I’ve borrowed that phrase from your partner in crime - right when you’re feeling completely yourself, you’ll ‘re-meet’ someone who is your biggest cheerleader in life, who shines a light on your talents and pushes you to be the best version of yourself. The love of your life - you’ll be surprised, daily, at how he brings out the best in you. He’ll match your passion for life (even if you struggle to keep up with his pace at times!) and will teach you how to ride your beloved Vespa (another great love of yours!) and to drive in the middle of the road and honk the damn horn. Take this as a big hint - take up more space in your own life.
Just when things seemingly couldn’t get any better, brace yourself for 2020 – this year will scare you. You are not invisible, but you will be forced to sit still for a while and your foundations get really rocky. You will feel seen again so try not to worry. You’ll sense that you’re probably in the wrong place if you’re not feeling valued. In this year you’ll truly face yourself and be forced to look deep into your thoughts, feelings and past trauma. Grit and get through it. Therapy is the best thing you can ever do to invest in yourself, and trust me when you come out the other side, you will be ready for the toughest chapter of your life so far.
Motherhood.
Becoming a mum will be the hardest job you’ll ever do. I think you’re navigating it well and being able to see the world through Lily’s eyes is a gift you will treasure. Again, try not to be so hard on yourself. Lily will be your greatest teacher of all time. That little side-kick is wise beyond her years and you’ll be grateful every day for how present she is. Heads up she makes an early entrance into the world!
Raising a mixed-race daughter won’t come without its challenges so remain uncomfortably aware of your privilege. You’ll have to navigate racism in the early days but it’ll only add more fuel to your fire to remain an open mother to Lily and do everything you can to protect her and enable her to soar.
If I could tell you now that you’ll be living the dream, you won’t believe me, but it happens.
I’m only covering the big stuff here, but there is so much beauty and so much learning in all the small moments of your life. Appreciate them all and embrace every minute of your beautiful life. Try not to people-please or compare yourself to others so much. Try to allow yourself to be proud of yourself. Stay kind, patient, and help others when you can. You are not defined by your work. You’re still discovering what your purpose is, but the journey to knowing this brings with it a much healthier balance. Learn when it’s a good time to rest and trust that in times of rest, you gain far greater clarity on your next steps. Keep feeding your natural curiosity. Be intrigued by people. Stay true to yourself. Take the risk.
Until we meet again and I can talk you through the next 18 years..
You got this,
Until we meet again and I can talk you through the next 18 years.
You got this,
Love Jen in 2024
x
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Mel: Just One Thing is a podcast with both feet firmly placed in the world of events in the creative industries presented by me, Mel Noakes.
Max: And me, Max Fellows.
Mel: It's a podcast from Elevate where industry Trailblazers write a letter to their younger selves
Max: And consider what wise words of advice they would give themselves now, if only they could.
Mel: Our discussion is all based on this letter, be prepared for refreshingly honest conversations and words of wisdom.
Mel: We are delighted to have her with us. Welcome to the podcast, Jen!
Jen: Thank you so much.
Max: Big Welcome! I loved watching your face as you heard the introduction.
…
Max: How was the experience we saved right into the letters? The whole premise of this conversation is based on the letter you wrote to your 18-year-old self.Jen: I really enjoyed it, actually. I enjoyed it. It's like therapy. I think I had a couple of weeks to prep for it, and I kept thinking, Oh, I'll put that in. Oh, that was quite a big moment. And I had notes on my phone, writing them. And then it was really good. I put my daughter down for a nap one day. And I was like, I'm just going to write it. The house was quiet. I actually cried a lot writing it.
I think it's the only or first time that you ever look back and reflect on those years. But also, when you see it all kind of chronologically, you see the journey that you've come on, or, I guess, there are moments where you think, Oh, that was a really painful or difficult time. Or maybe I was in a job that I wasn't loving or growing out of, or all those things, and you realise, you know, that phrase like you're exactly where you're meant to be.
And you look at it chronologically, and I'm like, if I hadn't done that, it wouldn't have led to this. I really enjoyed it. It was a really great process, and I think I probably learned a lot about myself looking back on it as well.
Max: We touched on this before, didn't we? Encouraged, should we say, the opportunity to stop and just reflect. Everything is so much about looking forward. People don't have them, and I can't remember the last time I did, or what was the last time you did? Actually look back at your achievements or career when reflected properly.
Mel: Oh, it was so busy looking at what's next. And the next thing and the next horizon, you forget sometimes to see how far you've come?
Jen: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mel: But before we dive too much in, because we will obviously spend the podcast talking about the letter and the learnings and insights that you've had and some of your reflections, it would be great to tell our listeners a little bit about you, where you're from, a little bit about your background, and what your role entails.
Jen: Yes. I was actually born in Paris. But I'm not fashionable. We were there with my dad's job. But I feel like there's sort of this European, like, I don't know, quite creative, semi-nomadic, back in the 80s, or my parents would have moved there and no one spoke English. And it would have been a really difficult time, I suppose, for them. I was born in Paris. But then we moved back to Hertfordshire. I grew up on the border of Hertfordshire and Essex in a town called Bishop’s Stortford, which a lot of people know because it's near Stansted Airport. Great little town.
I grew up in a Catholic family. I'm one of three and the middle child. At times, it was probably a fairly traditional upbringing. Definitely, as a kind of middle child, I had an older brother who's 18 months older than me, and we were very close and only one year apart. So a lot of our growth and milestones were similar. I have a sister who's three years younger than me, and now, I mean, we've always been, but now we're really best friends with my sister. And she's been a big inspiration in my life as well.
One of three, I grew up in Bishop’s Stortford and came from a relatively big family. Big family on my dad's side. He's a kind of Catholic influence, one of five, like the big, bustling family and the big characters in our family, which is amazing and always Christmas time was like a big moment, and seeing everyone was a really lively, full-house kind of thing. I think as a family, even we were a family unit of five. There was always this feeling that, a couple of days after Christmas, there was this big family game together.
My mom's family is a bit smaller, but from the Midlands. I'm really close as well to my cousin; we're like a month apart, so all those milestones as children and as cousins we could relate to a lot. So, I had a lovely family upbringing and lots of fun. Childhood, lots of memories of, like, a lot of play between the three of us, and, like, you know, going to the park and being outside a lot was really fun. So kind of grew up in.
I suppose it's grown a lot now. It felt like a big town only because I was little then, but going back, it's funny. Isn't it like everything feels like it should be bigger? And especially now that I'm in London, I went to an all-girls secondary school and had some great friends and pals from secondary school, but I went to a mixed sixth form, which was amazing. That's when I met my real core girls, who are lifelong friends.
Always quite creative and sporty, I did lots of sports outside. As I said, drama was a big influence, as was music. My mom's really musical. So we grew up with things like music in the house, playing musical instruments, acting, and dancing. I did all different kinds of dance. There were like hobbies every night of the week—that kind of life, which I suppose led me on to wanting to study drama.
But always quite academic and quite hard working at the same time. So I explored the option of going to drama school and actually ended up looking at universities so I could carry on a bit of both, and ended up at Loughborough University. I remember it being the only university I went to on my own. I didn't go with a parent to go and visit, so I just went to the day, open day, or whatever they were on my own and literally loved it. I got on this bus from the station with all the students, so I felt like I was kind of a student and got off the complete other end of the campus just because I was following this gang of students like where they're going.
The drama department was on the other end of the campus, but it was amazing and like sports everywhere, and it was a bit of an awakening, thinking I was really sporty. I played at the county level at school, and the first thing they asked you was, when did you play for GB? I was like, I'm in the wrong room.
Max: Not many universities are better than Loughborough in terms of spots.
Jen: I loved it. Exactly. But it was great. It was really good fun. I think there's a moment actually in the letter where I talked about being kind of feeling like you're a big fish in a small pond in your hometown and like going to university and you're in a very big pond. So it was good. It was a learning curve into, really, the real world. So I left Uni, studied drama and English literature at Uni, but much more on the drama side, really performance.
Then I gave the acting thing a go in London. The auditioning process that you go through is brutal. But, weirdly, I kind of enjoyed it. But I had these moments. I remember, like, one of my memories. I can't remember which drama school I was auditioning for at the time, and I made really good friends with a girl in the room. We got along really well, and we're really similar. We talked about all of our lives and how we ended up at this point.
And then it kind of got to the point where you stood up and were ready to do something like the dance audition, and she's next to me, and you realise you're actually competing against each other, and I think it's a prominent memory for me because it probably made me realise, like, I'm an empathic, basically, and I love to connect with people. And I get on with, hopefully, most people, and I really struggled with that balance, like, oh God, if it's me or you, I want it, and what if, but I also want you to get it?
So maybe you know it was that competitiveness, which I think I really struggled with, but actually after a few rounds of it, I really enjoyed that process. And it was definitely worth me doing it. Because it then made me really hone in on what I really loved, like performing and live performances and being around an audience, which I guess led me into the path of doing events, which is where my entire career has spanned.
So I initially worked at Coots. I did an internship there, which was meant to be a two-week temporary, like work experience, and I was there for like a year in the end. But it was really good fun. And that was through a good friend from university who knew someone there. Then, just honestly, like graft, I wrote loads of companies. I spoke to a lady who ran this huge charity day event in the city. And the reason I even got in contact with her is because I saw this event photographed on the front page of the Metro newspaper in London, and you just put your CV out there and go and meet as many people as possible, and I did lots of things in my spare time as well to just feel like I was adding to that kind of industry. Try and meet as many people as possible.
So I ended up at this place called ICAP, which, weirdly, is where I met my now-husband, but at the time we met, he was on a grad scheme. And I was just a regular old employee, but we met then. And it was really nice, because it was a kind of group of us sort of, like similar age basically, got on really well, and probably looking back, there was always an element of chemistry between us. But I was with someone at the time, and he was single, but nothing came of it. When I left the company, I remember we were sort of like, I don't really know if we can stay in touch. And it all kind of came out that maybe there was something more going on.
But it was really nice recognising that as well in the letter, because there's a moment where, in life, we basically were re-introduced to each other. There was a re-meeting. And that's like a total right time, right place, right person—that kind of moment. I loved my time there, absolutely loved it, and worked with an amazing lady who is probably a bit of a mentor to me looking back, and I learned a lot of the ropes through her.
And then what happened after that? Oh, this was probably the first moment that I thought I had to probably have a bit of confidence in myself for my own skill, but also my own determination that something was going to be coming around the corner. And I'd been at the company for about five years. And I think I thought it was just worth a gamble at this stage. At that point, you don't have any major responsibilities—no kids or anything like that. No mortgage.
Is it worth a risk to try and see what else there is out there? So I quit and didn't have another job to go to. I was trying to hustle. Hustle is like a good word for those years. Non-stop hustle.
Max: Sorry to interrupt, but to the point of leaving, I know that you said amazing times and things like that, to leave without something to go to.
Jen: I remember having a chat with my boss at the time, Nikki, who I said was a bit of a mentor during those years. It was one of these things where we were like, I loved my job. I loved the company, and I loved what we were doing, but I wasn't necessarily learning anything new. And you know, they say if you're either learning or you're earning, and it was that point where I was like, I don't think I'm learning anything more. And how do I get to that next step, that next rung on the ladder?
She was very honest, and I think she said there is such a thing as a career in business, I suppose, where you can reach a bit of a ceiling in your role. And actually, the company can't facilitate any further growth for you. But being told that, like a 25-year-old, it was a big learning curve, because I was a bit like, I'm ready for the next thing; you're going to promote me. I can do this, this, and this. And actually, the nature of it was that this is the role you've sort of gotten to reach the ceiling of. And it was good learning because it kind of forced me to go, even though I love this. Nothing's gone wrong. But I'm ready for the next thing.
I think it was actually probably a very lovely, honest piece of advice from her as well to say, you know, we don't want to lose you, but maybe it's time for something different.
Mel: And it's so important, isn't it? In life, we hear this a lot, like, when's the right time to move? And how do you move? And actually, I think a lot of people stay in roles for a long time because they love the company or the people with whom they're comfortable. And then, they're so long, you think, well, if I've been here for five years, can I do anything else? You almost become a little bit institutionalised. But having that sense of awareness, and, like you say, having a good life lesson, because there will be roles in your career that you come into that are perfect for that moment, And then you outgrow them, and it's having the courage to say, I need a new challenge, new thing.
Jen: It was that kind of self-awareness. I think for me as well, I knew that I was loving doing events and how I was. But there was something about aligning it more to like my passions and my natural instincts, which I've really started to focus on and hone in on fashion at that point because I was like, I want to be doing this and this same skill set that I've got. I want to be doing it in a way that I'm super excited about, proud of, and can shout about.
When I left without anything to go to, I thought I'd give a bit of freelancing a go. It was good to kind of mix up and go agency side for a bit and do a stint, and that was really fun. I basically added a lot more variety, I suppose, to my CV and learning curve. Then I met a recruiter during that process, and out of the blue, she called me and said, I think I want to put you forward for a job, but you're definitely the wildcard, but I'm going to put you forward anyway. And it was the job at Burberry, basically, and I went for this interview, and I remember thinking. I'm out of my depth here.
But there was just something in me—you know, you can do it.
Max: What was the role at Burberry?
Jen: The role at the time was to try to remember what my title would have been. It was before I stepped into the global director role. It was probably like a head of or a senior manager, a global senior manager at the same team, but that kind of, you're running full projects for this brand.
Max: This small, little unknown brand.
Jen: Anyway. I met the lady who then became my boss, Emma Jane, who had been there for years. And I think we just clicked, I guess, and I think there was something probably about the team that she was managing that you work on some very intense projects in fashion. And things move extremely quickly. And the people are so important. It was like your attitude to work, how you work, and how you work with other people. So, certainly from my perspective, if I look back, there was more engagement in that moment about how I'm going to fit into a team and fit into the brand, which was as valuable as what was written on my CV.
Mel: I think people see that a lot. I think about the interviews that I've been interviewing for and have been interviewed for. There is such a double focus because you could be the best person on paper. But if you're not going to fit into the team, it's not good for the individual there.
Jen: Totally. Yeah. So I remember I kind of walked back there on Horseferry Road by the bridge. I walked over the bridge. And by the time I'd got to the other side of the bridge, I'd had a call saying, Can I come back? I was like, I'm on my way to work, but I came back later that day, and hours later we met. I was sitting in a room, and it was like a revolving door. The CMO came in, her right-hand guy came in, someone else came in, and we met everybody. And the next morning, I was offered the job.
Max: Wow!
Jen: Definitely, I got a feel and a sense for that place and the years that I had at Burberry, so I was there for just under five years. And the learning curve that I went through during those years was phenomenal. I had half of my career under the creative direction of Christopher Bailey. And then the second half was under Riccardo Tisci, with completely different creative directors and their vision for the brand. There's an enormous amount of heritage and a legacy with Christopher, and then we were literally blank sheets of paper. What do we do now with a different creative director and such a good learning curve to not become complacent about the things that we do every year, just because this is what Burberry does?
We literally tore up the rulebook and started again, which again, for me, and in that era, I had then progressed on to becoming the director role. So I was then heading up the team; my predecessor had left, and they'd gone to set up their own agency. And so I was under completely different guidance and a different vision. It was such an amazing learning curve.
What a brand! I loved it and only have like the most amazing fond memories of there, even though I'm sure the day-to-day was the hardest, but we used to have the same space; we used to call it a war room prior to running shows. And it was like two weeks of show prep. And you were literally in this room around the clock. And so it's important for the people around you. And the chemistry of that space is completely crucial.
I'm really blessed that I've got an amazing network of ex-colleagues who have all gone on to do phenomenal things and work for incredible brands. But all of us, if you ever kind of bump into each other, there's that moment where we all say there was something really magic about those years in that specific era with those people that you would probably struggle to recreate again. And we did incredible things, like sitting around a table and brainstorming about something, and the next week we were planning it. It was really, really brilliant.
To the end of that time, it had gotten to a place where I probably felt like it was semi; we were going into another year or another season, and it could potentially become a little bit like Groundhog Day. And I think, having gone through this entire transition for my re-meet within the entire brand, I was ready to take all of that skill and learning and take it somewhere else.
During that time, for about six months on and off, I've been speaking to Soho House in various different roles. And this kind of thing felt like there was this kind of courtship going on between the two of us. And I remember I just delivered an event. We've just done a tour of an event where we've gone from London, Beijing, and New York, and I landed at Terminal 5, waiting for my bag and my phone to ring. And it was a friend of mine, also coincidentally, an ex-Burberry, who was at Soho House, who said we're sitting at the farmhouse. We're talking about a new role. It would be a global head of brand experiences. I've just said I think it's Jen, and they want to see you tomorrow.
It was just like perfect timing. I think I was probably having those thoughts, and this opportunity came up. And on paper, this role was like the dream job. We want to take the essence of what lives between the four walls, rather than Soho House. And the incredible, creative essence that is just very special for that brand and their members. And we want to take it outside of our houses and take it all around the world and do incredible wellness retreats, festivals, and party collaborations. Basically, take what we're doing really well and take it global outside of that space. Actually, the brief was that we wanted to do a house festival, but in LA, and I was like, I think it's this, kind of get that brief, I suppose, with them.
It was really, really exciting in a brand new chapter to have a chance to build a team, and I knew the nuts and bolts and exactly how to do that through what I'd learned at Burberry, and we've done everything from the show to parties to huge brand collaborations and touring exhibitions. I was like, I can do this with this brand.
Anyway, as luck would have it, that was like November 2019, and six months around the corner, obviously, COVID hit and my job was brand new. We hadn't tested it. We've got a whole plan for the year mapped out. It involves bringing loads of people together and a lot of travel, and obviously all of that is like the perfect storm overnight. It all disappeared. So I was gutted, I won't lie, and I'd left a job at Burberry with a really high sense of self-esteem, and I gained a lot of my own self-purpose and identity, I suppose, from my role at Burberry. And then I was in this completely new re-meeting. I'd got the green light to go. And, obviously, the entire universe was saying, No, you've got to...
Mel: It's interesting because, obviously, every guest we've had on the podcast, you can't not talk about that. But it's interesting to hear how you navigated something like that because your situation is quite unique: a brand new job, a big global re-meet, a blank sheet of paper, everyone's super excited, and you left a job that you loved. What tools, I guess, is the question I am going to ask, and how did you find your way through that?
Jen: I mean, it was awful. I won't lie. I think when you're in it, you're just going, Oh, it's making me feel emotional. You're like, moving...
Mel: That’s alright.
Max: Take a moment. Take your time.
Jen: I think, in all honesty, you really hit rock bottom. During that time as well, I'd met my now-husband, and we were engaged. And I remember I'd lost. I think there was a week where it was like the news was kind of escalating every day. And it would have been like a Tuesday, and this is pretty bad. Everyone's getting sent home from the office. On Wednesday, this is like doubled inside. The magnitude got higher and higher. Pretty much by Friday, I was like, I think the job was going to end. Not even like a furlough; it was more like we don't even know when this is going to stop. So I lost the job.
By Monday, the wedding was cancelled. So it was like within a very intense period of time because you just naturally, because I'm in events, you kind of pivot. No worries, I lost my job. I'll plan the wedding. It will definitely be done by June. Oh, my gosh, how foolish! And then it got cancelled. No worries; I'll replan it for October. All the supplies read and lock in a new day. A couple of months later, it gets cancelled again, and the more it went on, I think, the more it forced me to go. This isn't going anywhere. You've literally got to just sit on your ass on these four walls of your flat, and you just have to sit still and wait for this to pass. And it was awful. Honestly, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. And I found it very isolating. And Elliott, my husband, was in a job where he was classified as a key worker. So he was out. His routine didn't change at all. He was out the door every day, and I remember he would leave in the morning, and it would literally be like taking everything in me to... I'd pretty much be counting down the hours before he came home for company. I really…
Max: A bit of resentment there as well, because he'd got to go out and see people and live a bit.
Jen: Talk to people.
Mel: What I wouldn't have known was how great the training was for having a baby a few years later.
Jen: Yes. Oh, my gosh, absolutely. It was really hard. The biggest thing that helped me through it, for sure, and I appreciate how I was in a very privileged position to even be able to do this, was that I was speaking to a therapist at the time.
We had just started because when I left Burberry, it was quite a brutal exit from Burberry, I won't lie. I had a different manager at the time, and the exit was handled really badly. I kind of felt like I'd been spat out on the other end, so I actually started speaking to a therapist after a couple of months. It was at the very end of 2019. So, I was already in the process of learning about myself and learning about why these things affected me so much.
Then, the therapist was a real lifeline during that time, and I amped up my therapy, and that was also probably quite intense; it made everything probably even more intense, like I was going through heavy therapy and I couldn't do anything to get out. The most you could do was go for a walk, stretch your legs, and grab a coffee, and it was just really, really tough. None of us should exist like that.
Certainly, for me, I'm a people person, and I get a lot of my energy. I also really value my own time and my own space, but I definitely get my energy from other people. I found it really hard. I tried to define a routine, and there's like, no motivation really, for that. It was amazing that I had a little Vespa, which I'd been riding for about a year. And I would some days be like, it was beautiful weather as well. And it was amazing. So wearing a helmet. I wasn't next to anyone. We had no contact, but I could be out. And it wasn't just like doing the normal lap of a local park that I would do every day. It was like I could get out. I went up to the river, scooted around London, and it was dead. It was brilliant. And it was like that—probably my best friend, my therapist, my husband, and a lot of Rosae were lifelines.
Mel: This is the thing. I think a lot of people have sugar coated those difficult moments in their time, but actually everybody, and it doesn't matter how it looks on the outside, there's a moment in everyone's life where there's a thing that causes them to need additional support, need additional help, and there's no shame or difficulty in that. But it's just making sure you get the help you need, in whatever form that comes. For you, it was a Vespa, a therapist, and Rosae.
Max: Before we get on to the last part, I suppose it is Tilbury. Prior to that, the way that you've explained your career seems amazing in the sense of fortune and timing and natural and all the rest of it. Your letter, unlike any, and I mentioned this before, is the opposite of what you've just explained—polar opposite. You did mention work once. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing in any way, shape, or form. We were talking before this as well. It's far more about the emotional journey and things like that that you've been on personally in terms of the last 15 years or so, which I thought was really interesting.
I wanted to ask; it is almost like what you described here as the swan. Beautiful career, and underneath, there's some other stuff going on.
One of the things you mentioned about the anxiety piece and things like that is that there's some really tough times in there. Not to detract from the swan side of things, because the CV is on fire and looks amazing. I just want to know, I suppose, if you can relate it in terms of those roles or those career points and equally what you were going through or what was happening and the journey went on from that side in terms of the growth or how you managed it came out or dealt with it.
Jen: I think it is probably interesting that I didn't talk so much about my career in the letter, and actually, I'm quite proud of myself, that that's where my headspace is now because, definitely, through those tough years, I didn't know it was anxiety, and that was a big thing to learn about to even know that that was a thing. Probably, there was an element of being depressed in there.
Max: And these years started from when? I mean, kind of early in my career or...
Jen: I honestly think I was probably a little bit of an anxious person from a young age, kind of like the people-pleasing element, but I think the bigger stuff started to happen. It started exactly when I started at Burberry, not because of Burberry but because of completely personal reasons.
But just quickly to say about the letter, I think it is surprising I didn't talk about the career because I definitely struggled with feeling like my only sense of self and identity was if I was attached to a big title, a big shiny brand. And the nice thing is that now obviously, I've talked about this letter, and all the big, big stuff is actually all about my life and who I am and like the people in it, and not that it's more or less important, because it's all just life, isn't it? But that is an interesting observation. So I think the anxiety and the struggles mentally really started around Burberry.
I was in a long-term relationship since the middle of uni. I met someone at uni, and we had the most incredible relationship and went through. You kind of grow up together, really, when you meet someone that young. And I was with him for 10 years in total, and we were really close, but my whole world was wrapped up in his world. We had the same group of friends, a huge social life in London, and an incredible group of friends.
But when I got the job at Burberry, there was something in me that felt like I was going on a slightly different path, and maybe we had slightly different kinds of energies, or almost like what we wanted from our lives was maybe going to look a little bit different, which is how I started to sense things.
This thought basically wasn't going away. And it was a very gut feeling that something wasn't feeling right with how I felt in that relationship and who I was, and I was almost feeling like I had, over the course of like many years, moulded myself to fit into this life that we thought we'd always have. And I started Burberry, and we basically had a big chat to say how I was feeling after many years, and we live together, and everything else was huge. And my entire life was wrapped up with this person. For me, I was like, am I going to essentially completely uproot my entire life a bit at that moment where I quit my job with no other plan to go to? It was that again.
Two days later, and this is my second week at Burberry, and we were in the middle of show prep. In a September show. I'd never done it before; it was intense but brilliant. We found out that he had cancer. He was diagnosed with cancer. I guess he was about 29, and I was 27–28. I just remember thinking, like, I just didn't know how to process it, and you just go into, like, day-by-day appointments, etc. But it was pretty severe. And he had to have an operation within two weeks. I then had to sort of tell my manager, who I barely knew, that this huge thing had happened.
After we did the show in September, I don't think anyone really knew at work; I was basically sort of was off for two weeks while he had an operation and then was in the hospital for a couple of weeks. My mother and I liked staying at our flat, and I was sleeping on the sofa. I was also in a very intense job that I wanted to do to prove myself, and I felt like I'd gotten to this point.
So I'd get up to the hospital at like 7 a.m. in the morning and kind of get my makeup bedside with him. The nurses were so lovely. They come and bring me a cup of tea this morning, Jen, and it tastes like Marmite on toast. I remember every day it was so sweet. So I'd had this weird few months where it was this weird routine of, basically, survival: go dashing up their breakfast, see him, do a full, intense day of work, go back to the hospital, and spend all evening there. I was accommodating, like friends who were messaging to see when they could come and see him.
I remember my best friend Perry coming and sitting with me in the waiting room. And she was like, and I said, Oh, you can go, and you can go and see him if you want, and then she was like, No, I'm here to see you, and I bought you dinner, and we sat and had like M&S food and had a big cry and whatever. We sat there, and I walked her back to the station, and she said, Don't feel trapped.
I think that's how I felt. I think I felt worried that I'd wake up in another 10 years and be wondering how I got there, but it felt so monumental to break up something in this situation. You'd almost rather go through the emotion and keep everyone happy than put yourself first, which is how it felt.
We then found out he needed to have chemo afterwards. So again, I guess, my timeline was like, really put on hold all of it. And so I think that year, my anxiety must have really skyrocketed. And I think I threw myself into work. So no one would have known, hopefully, at the time. And then we came out the other end, and he proposed, and I remember thinking, We must be stronger than ever; this must be happening for a reason; I must still be with him for this reason. Let's give it a go. Maybe this will fix everything.
This feeling just wouldn't go away. And it's also really hard when nothing's gone wrong. There was no reason to blame. I wanted something to blame for looking for things to go wrong, to be like, it's because of that. And it wasn't.
Anyway, obviously, many months passed. And it got to a point where I thought it was literally eating me alive. I felt like I was living almost like a double life. It was really strange. And that wasn't fair on me or him. And we had to have the most incredible, like, 10-year relationship gone through this incredible thing together. And I remember my dad saying, I think you need to say it out loud, Jen, like you need to practice what you're going to say when nothing's gone wrong. How do you put that into words? Anyway, I don't know.
Somehow, we both managed to navigate it as gracefully as we could. But it was really hard. I didn't hear from any of those friends literally ever again, and that's like your 10-year friendship and all of your mates and your entire social life and where you live and how you...
Max: Identity piece associated.
Jen: Like every holiday. I was like, who am I going to hang out with? Who am I going to go on holiday with? Anyway, obviously, the magnitude of it in your brain is way worse because, actually, I had all these brilliant friends from university and everything else, who I am not joking. In the letter, I think I describe it as like they brought me back from the dead.
The amount of anxiety, pain, and guilt. The guilt is, oh my gosh, indescribable. But to that feeling of feeling like you should be putting yourself first when, actually, for years, even since being a child, like I mentioned, I was a middle child, I probably never put myself first. I was the peacemaker from birth, basically.
It just felt very alien to me, and a lot of advice that I've been trying to tell myself when writing the letter to my 18-year-old self was that there was a phrase my therapist used to say about owning your own gold, and you've got to like own it; no one's going to own it for you, and like she used to say, just keep like polishing your own gold, Jen, and like that metaphor for like, taking up space in your own life.
We've called it before, like that main character energy. You've got to be the leading lady in your own life. It was real. I don't think I'd ever really done that before.
Mel: What's interesting about the letter, when you read it, is that you get this real sense of grit and determination. You mentioned things like writing letters to companies and putting yourself out there and putting yourself in places where I think a lot of people would step away and say, that's too far out of my comfort zone, or That's uncomfortable going for the job in Burberry. I mean, I had a great piece of advice from an old boss; he used to say that you should be able to do 80% of it. But if 20% doesn't scare me, absolutely. And so whatever word comes out of you, it's probably not for you.
You feel like somebody who's got that grit determination but also that gut instinct that even if it's quiet, nudging, that goes, actually this isn't quite right. I need to go somewhere else.
So how much do you think those skills have developed over time? And how much did they play a role in the sorts of decisions that you're making now?
Jen: Now, I feel like I'm super aware of it. Because it's guided me on those big decisions, which have only ended in positive outcomes. Even though the period of time might have been incredibly tough, even at that time, I knew a weight had been lifted. And I knew there was something in me that was like, I'm prepared to be lonely and be on my own or whatever it would take for, like, a long time, in order to prioritise something within me.
Now, I think I really trust my gut instinct, and I also think I'm learning that if I have an emotional response to something like a guttural, it feels true, like there's truth in whatever I'm doing. So actually, if it feels right, I'll often feel emotional about something, but that's also me being empathic.
Max: It is also an interesting fact with it in that you went down, I'll say amgam frenzy, but drama and the performing arts were, as we've had, I think 10 people on this podcast, three of whom were also very much the same performing arts, things like that.
Do you feel like there's an element of performance and being an expert or putting on a mask, or what would be a character in a role and things that helped in the process?
Jen: It may have done that.
Max: The reason why I'm referencing it in terms of that, not the side, but the ability to almost puff up and inflate your confidence, even if it's not necessarily real at that time, is that kind of person or character.
Jen: What was weird is that that saying almost felt like I was living this sort of double life, the kind where my boyfriend at the time was in the hospital and everything. I would almost put on that role that you're playing, put your game face on, and go into work. And that gets you through those hours at work, whatever.
I also think it's dangerous, though, because I think I was probably doing that to such an extent, and there was also another memory that sprung to me when I was writing the letter. On my way, I remember just needing to get through the front door, and I knew I was just going to break down on the other side of it. So you feel like you're kind of living with a slight facade to hold me up in the day. And that is just survival. When you're going through these feelings of real anxiety, and even I couldn't articulate it, that was the thing. And having gone through therapy, you can put words to these things, which really helped now, but at the time, I just felt like I was drowning. And I remember this feeling that I just needed to get to the door, get to the door, get to the front door, close the door, and literally collapse behind it.
There's probably danger in this; it gives you the tools to be able to put on the front and get through the day, but at the same time, you don't want it to start defining you, and you don't know how to deal with the stuff that's going on deep down.
Mel: You talk a little bit in your letter as well about these love-of-life moments. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there is an interesting link between drama, life moments, performance, and actually the industry that we live in.
Do you think the 18-year-old Jen at drama school would be surprised at where you've ended up? And what're you doing now?
Jen: Yes, Oh, my gosh, I think if I could tell 18-year-old Jen, you'd have ended up doing five years; you'd be the global director of events at Burberry; you'd travel the world with that; you'd be doing runway shows; then you're going to go and do your own thing; then you're going to end up at this incredible beauty brand now, a household name. You'll be married with a kid; you bought a house together. I'd be like, Are you joking? It's literally that phrase; you feel like that would have been the dream for me at that age. Now I need to realise I'm really living what my dream was when you recognise it. And yeah, I definitely would be surprised. She never would have even entertained the fact that I'd have ended up at Burberry, for sure.
Mel: Do you think the skills you learned there are useful? I mean, we've obviously talked about some of the pros and cons of being able to put on a game face and things, but do you think the skills from your education have played a role in the way that you've conducted yourself in your career?
Jen: Yeah, more than anything, really. I think. I think just even school and being part of social clubs and throwing myself into anything and kind of giving anything a bit of a go, I think that attitude and again, how you're brought up and my parents encouraging that, and my sister is now an actor, and I see what she has to go through and graph every few months or in a show, and then it goes again. It's such an inspiration to keep going.
My brother's a carpenter. But he's living a real nomadic lifestyle. I left London, am down in Cornwall now, and am travelling the world. He is in Brazil. There's a zest for life, and you get it. It is the grit and the openness. I remember when I came out of the back of my relationship breakup, I was like, I'm just going to say yes to everything this year. I'm going to do everything and just throw myself in.
I remember being like, I'm going to spend all my money. I'm going to have one hell of a year. So, probably, attitudes would have been no doubt shaped at school and the opportunities given to me.
Max: What would you say to anyone? Most females have kind of younger years aspiring into beauty fashion, and my wife's in the beauty side as well. My knowledge of makeup is... But in terms of the advice that you'd give a younger person, probably a little bit older, entering kind of the 20s or early 20s, that would dream to do that global events role at Burberry is an example with Charlotte Tilbury as well, but what would you say, having done it for five years and knowing that pace that you talk about? You know there are a number of people behind you ready to take on your role if it doesn't work, and otherwise, that would have been pressure as well. What would you say to those individuals as to how to get there? Or what advice would you give them, I suppose, if that's their aspiration?
Jen: There's something I was thinking if I interview someone, if I'm recruiting, where you feel like you can't buy, and you can't necessarily even teach the right attitude that you can teach skills, and you can mould someone into, like how we do things at this company, but the attitude of someone you can't really buy, you've got to have that hunger, that eagerness, and the willingness to just go for it. I'll do any task, and I'm going to learn from this, and I think is something that I would really encourage that kind of younger generation, because I think entering the workplace now is completely different as a landscape from how we entered.
I think there's that attitude to just be hungry for something and to believe in yourself, but also just know that there are people there who can offer an enormous amount of guidance and wisdom, and you're going to learn and be a bit of a sponge. Like any meeting you're in, you won't necessarily realise it, but you're learning from people around you and how the meetings are conducted and how we make decisions and lead on things and projects or strategic decisions.
All of that aside, I think there's just an openness and an awareness that I think there's that attitudinal piece that you can't really buy. But I think in terms of advice, I hope there's another generation where we all want to see positive change in all industries and to benefit our big, beautiful world as well, and have that at your forefront.
I think that's where the next generation is going to be teaching us a lot of stuff, actually. I'm excited to see what will be coming in the next few years, I guess, for these big brands.
Max: You mentioned there were a couple of points around that sponge and taking advice and things like that on that journey. You mentioned Nikki for ICAP. Who else has been influential? And obviously, the mentor, Elevate, does as well. But who are the key people that have acted as your mentors or that you've seen as kind of support and guidance or helped shape your journey?
Jen: I'm probably going to forget some really key people as well. I would say that from that kind of young, impressionable years, Nikki, iCap, and then Emma Jane at Burberry, I definitely learned a lot from her and just how she ran events and conducted them, which I definitely learned a lot from her there. I would definitely put my husband in that category as well, and he has this energy for life.
On a Saturday morning, if he's not already achieved 15 things, he's absolutely thrilled, but just at that pace, he is on it beyond belief. So, I think he's definitely been a mentor, definitely also from a personal perspective, to put myself first. He has been a real champion and a cheerleader of mine.
I put my sister in that category. I also think, not as a mentor, but definitely as a kind of role model. I had two very strong grandmothers and was very close to my mom's mom, and she was real; just her life and the hardships she went through, I would put her as a role model mentor.
My granny is on my dad's side, and my little girl, Lily, is Lily B because my granny was called Barbara, but we will call her B. So named a little bit of a nod to her as well. So, I think, I've had really strong women in my life and have learned a lot from them, and I think, hopefully, I can be a bit of a role model to others in years to come as well as
Mel: There are a couple of questions before we get to the question, but talking about role models and powerful role models, obviously, in the kind of roles you've been in and now as a mom, what kind of role model do you hope to be? Or try to be in your role for those people coming up behind you?
Jen: Great question, Mel. I definitely had a thing about coming off the back of COVID and then looking at what would come next in my career. At the same time, I would have been pregnant at the time we had Lily in June 2021. She arrived, was premature two months early, and was another curveball.
While I was pregnant, I definitely thought about what kind of role model and mother figure I wanted to be for Lily. I knew I was having a girl as well. One of the things was that I love my work and I'll always really embrace having a career, and I knew I wanted her to see what it was like to have this kind of hard-working mom, and we live in London at this incredible pace. It's important to take stock and take breathers in that. I felt like I needed a creative outlet, and actually, very recently, I've just launched a little side hustle, like a little passion project.
Mel: Tell us more.
Jen: It is kind of for this reason, actually, because I really would love to see in the years where Lily's growing up that there's almost this kind of creative sanctuary that I have as an outlet for my work. So I love my work, and I am obviously a global director of events at Charlotte Tilbury at the moment.
The lovely thing about working for any brand is that you're able to explore trends and capitalize on them creatively, which gives you a lot of new energy that comes up and new briefs that come up at work. But to take the essence of how I run events and my vision that I think you only gain through having worked at big luxury brands and the expectation of how we present those brands to the world,.
There's something really special about that kind of skill set, which I found was really missing in the bridal industry. So, basically, long story short, I launched this little side hustle to essentially give. It's like a consultancy, but I'm going to be working with couples on doing some kind of wedding planning, styling, and design.
It's just a creative outlet for me, doing something personal for me. But it was definitely born out of this kind of role model and creative space that I would love Lily to be able to see as she grows up. And I've got a bit of a bigger vision for it one day, one year when it's ready, but I'm just excited to have something of my own. And I think I felt really ready to own something.
I saw a gap in this market, which I hope will really resonate with lots of different people and what they want their special moments in life to be—a wedding day or some other event—but just something that I can nurture and grow like on the side. And I think that, really, as a role model for my little girl, I would love to see that she sees mom doing something for herself. And it feels creative, and it feels playful, and she can see the work I'm doing as well. I think that'd be important for her.
Max: No, I love that. And so with you now, how long have you been at Charlotte Tilbury?
Jen: Actually, only six and a half months, relatively early days as a brand new re-meet for the company. There's been a lot of navigating about how we embed it effectively within the business, and we haven't yet recruited a team or anything else but are just embedding and learning the ropes.
Max: With it and obviously, where you've been in that conversation point we had, if you'd seen yourself 18 to now, you'd be amazed and almost completed it kind of thing. Where are you at now in terms of still being as hungry as ever? And where's next?
Jen: Well, as I mentioned, obviously, I've launched this little side hustle. It's like a little passion project. So it's called the Bond Studio. I hope that will be just something that starts to slowly grow and build as my own kind of personal creative outlet. But I think for me, I want to just have a really open heart to whatever's coming next. I think the big thing for me is that I know that as Lily gets older, I'm going to need to give her more of my time in a different way. I want to be a really available mom to her. And when she starts school, that means her hours and capabilities during your work week are different.
She's in daycare at the moment. So, there's kind of longer hours while she's being looked after. But I think probably over the next few years, there'll be a bit of a transition where I want to remain really, really available to her and also just see where this takes me at Charlotte Tilbury, where this roll is going to grow.
As I say, it's a brand new remit for the brand; it's a growing brand; they're hiring, we've got some really exciting launches happening this year, which in events that's like Mega to have like that much newness to play with every year. So I think in the immediate future, I'm really happy in the place we are, but I'm sure long-term, it will look a little bit different, purely because I want to spend a bit more time with my family, I guess.
But I can't imagine a world where I'm not working in some capacity or consulting, or where I need a creative space to have that, and it's a little piece for me. So, yeah, hopefully that is the answer.
Mel: I got a crystal ball on the table; exactly what's happening. It sounds good, but I don't know.
Max: It is the ambition behind that. I think that appetite to keep growing or to enjoy what you have to say about the relationship is really changing.
Jen: Anyone who has children, but even just observing kids, they just exist fully in the present, and that has been such a big learning curve. She's only two, so for the last two years, it's really brought me into that headspace. And that's why I think maybe I'm not planning too far.
I don't have that huge of a trajectory because I'm really appreciating where I am now. And that has also only come from a lot of work on myself and just trying to appreciate the time we've gotten for all the little moments.
Mel: That brings us nicely to the question. We love this because you've got four brilliant pieces of advice, which we've touched on throughout. But the question is, what's one piece of advice that's so good or so bad that you have to share it?
Jen: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a metaphor, but mine is to drive in the middle of the road and honk the damn horn.
Mel: Tell us more.
Jen: It was when I was learning to ride my Vespa, and I remember my husband being behind me, and he was like, Jen, drive in the middle of the road; you need to take up space; the other cars need to know you're here. And I kept sort of veering towards the cycle lane, wanting to almost be a bit hidden, letting everyone drive past me.
I remember I couldn't if anyone would; in what it's like in London, it's pretty wild on the road, and people cut you up. And they're very surprised to see a female driving and to be a kind of delivery driver.
I had to get used to honking the horn. I had to get used to hearing noise coming from me, and if that makes sense, as a metaphor, I remember my husband, Elliot, would say to me, Right on your way to work today, your challenge is to honk the horn three times. Even if you don't have a reason, you have to honk it three times. And like someone would cut you up and I'd be like, beep-beep, tiny little horn, and then gradually over time, I'm now driving in the middle of the road, honking my horn or anything, like I'm here basically.
Max: The road is raging on Vespa.
Jen: A bit of road raging but weaving, probably other drivers hate, but as a metaphor, I think for life, it's that, like, take up more space in the road. And you're here and own it. And I would be the kind of person who, if someone jumped in front of me in the queue, I'd be like, Oh, that's annoying, but nevermind, and now I'm like, Excuse me. I'm here. So, it's a bit of a metaphor, but I think that's my piece of advice.
Max: Yes. I love it. It's really good. You had a couple of other bits you mentioned; I think they're worth kind of bringing up. I couldn't remember what those were.
Jen: Yeah, the phrases. I had “own your own gold,” which I mentioned earlier. I think of a phrase that I always talk about with lots of my friends as well, as we say, “This too shall pass.” That's quite a well-known phrase, but I'm
Mel: Especially when you have a child.
Jen: Exactly. But it's good. It kind of compartmentalises it. This too shall pass, and “courage, dear heart.” That's another phrase that I love, and that's just more of a self-encouragement. Actually, I have courage tattooed on my arm here, just as a reminder, because it's like having courage, going for things, and taking risks. I think I can't remember if I had any others. No, that was it.
Max: The sadness.
Jen: Oh, my gosh, the sadness. It's more of a phrasing thing. It was really recently that someone told me the story, but apparently the Irish have a way of describing their feelings, and they'll say, for example, “Sadness is upon me.”
I love it as a way of expressing emotions because you know that feeling where you do feel sad, but it will pass, but you're not defined by it. And I think had I known that back in those years where I was, I would go so far as to say I was probably suffering from a bit of depression and definitely a lot of anxiety.
I am also a visual learner, so I visualise that without being defined by it. I'm still there as a separate entity. I think it's just a really nice way of expressing our emotions.
Max: In a really visual way.
Jen: Yeah, I think so.
Max: Brilliant.
Max: Thank you so much for sharing your honesty, transparency, and everything that went with the letter.
Jen: I am sorry for the emotions.
Max: You don't need to apologise because this is the real you, and that's why we appreciate it and your sharing, so thank you.
Mel: Thank you so much.
Jen: Thank you so much; I loved it. Thank you for having me.
Mel: Although Jen apologises, I love that she got emotional, and we were just reflecting on it between ourselves, but just how life is messy, and there's big stuff, and no one gets to the heights of careers or to the age that we all are without experiencing stuff and life stuff. And that comes in lots of different forms.
But her ability to, I guess, thrive in spite of it and to also recognise where she needs help and support and to pull on the skills that she's learned from the people that she's got, but also to know when to seek extra support, But what a career as well. She said herself that many people would look at her and just assume it's been easy and this perfect, linear trajectory to the top, and it's been brilliant to see under the bonnet of that.
Max: I agree with Jen. She is authentic; we use that word quite a bit, but to get upset on a couple of occasions, but the openness, willingness to share of the heartache and challenges, and that respect when on LinkedIn or the CV. It's this picture-perfect career to an extent of early progression.
That confidence with that ability to land these massive roles straight off the bat as these wildcards. I think the reality is that there is always stuff going on underneath that. At that time, the biggest wall of our lives was the biggest challenge of our lives from a personal perspective, and the good thing about Jen is normalising the need for support and getting it, both from therapy, friends, mentors, and things like that.
I think that in isolation, life is really hard, and I think it demonstrates that even in some of the best of times, it can also be some of the worst times behind closed doors.
Mel: But also, I love Jen's positivity, energy, and passion. I think that's one of the things that I love about our industry. When you see people, you would assume somebody in Jen's position with the roles that she's done, you've either become cynical or you've lost your passion or you've got comfortable or you've seen it or done it or and I'm sure she has literally seen it all and done it all but yeah, that hunger and drive to still do more and explore more and explore her own creativity in different ways and to continue learning and growing.
I think that's something I really respect and admire in Jen but in people in general is that sense of I've still got stuff to learn, I’ve still got stuff to give and do and I love watching her come alive in the way that she animated and for anyone that's watching this on YouTube but the way that how animated she is when she talks about her work and the love of it and that that hasn't faded and that really came across as well.
Max: Then, wrapping up with her piece of advice, I think that premise of owning your lane or staying in the middle of the road, owning your space, beeping your horn, and being heard.
I think it's great, and that I think for her is the bit that's enabled her to enjoy her work more and enjoy and have the confidence to do things for herself more, as I think everyone should do, and definitely polish your own gold, as you said. This was an amazing and probably one of the most emotional and heartfelt conversations we've had.
Mel: Definitely! I mean, we've said this a lot. But I think that's the beauty of the podcast, isn't it? There's so much gold in there. I'm not surprised. She had four on five and six, and there's probably it. We were joking afterwards that there's a whole other podcast episode in her.
But yeah, that sense of taking up your space and being unashamedly taking up your space, but also, I loved the sense of polishing your own gold and owning your worth. And I think, talking about role models for Jen, I think she's a great role model and a great ambassador for those kinds of things. Because I think, in particular for women, there's a lot of shying away, and I love that she's probably in the middle of the lane beeping her horn.
Max: As should we all.
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