Episode 10
NIC neal
People and Culture Strategy Consultant
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘IF I COULD TELL YOU JUST ONE THING ’:
Our guest on this episode is Nic Neal, who is a freelance people and culture strategy consultant but, until very recently, she was head of people and operations at the brand experience agency, Owl Live which is where she has worked for over 16 years. That’s quite a jump for a self-confessed control freak that likes to play it safe!
She has built her career on her innate people skills, starting as an intern while at Uni and worked her way up the business as it grew from just three people to over 55. She found her flow in the people space, falling in love with thinking about how people work and behave.
Nic says clarity always comes from engagement, not thought. You just need to dive in, take chances and go and grab what the world has to offer.
Welcome to the podcast Nic Neal.
Watch Nic on YouTube or listen to her on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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Dear 18 year old Nic, the control-freak that likes to play it safe,
It’s 2003 and right now you're dreaming of a career in the music industry, but let me break it to you gently - that dream isn’t going to pan out. The good news is, it’s going to be okay.
When the chance to kickstart your events career comes along, you’re going to have to work for free - yes, for free, and it’ll be your idea. Whatever you do, summon the courage to make that call. Don’t panic when he says no, he will change his mind. It will be the start of a career journey that will test you and push you to your limits, but will bring so much reward and personal growth with each challenge you overcome.
One of your biggest event management tests? Your own wedding day. And I’m really, really sorry to say that it will be a disaster. But in its own way, it will also be perfect. Take it as a sign that you can’t control everything in life, and even better, when you learn to let go, you allow yourself to see greater beauty in the things that really matter.
Your passion for events is going to evolve into a deep appreciation for connecting with people. You’re going to work your way up and they are going to call you a leader. Yep, it’s terrifying, especially when you hate making mistakes. Try to let go of that. Being vulnerable and learning to accept not having all the answers will be a valuable lesson in being the leader you’re capable of being. Also, you cry in public. A lot. Embrace it, there’s nothing wrong with wearing your heart on your sleeve.
As you grow, finding your tribe will be transformational for you. It will be the key to finding your voice and open more doors for you that you could ever imagine. When someone offers you to sign up for something called Elevate, say yes immediately.
Look, I know you. You will want to play it safe. Your childhood has prepared you to put the guard up, keep control and opt for security, and in many ways it will serve you well, but it will limit your potential. You’re going to face a fork in the road where the safe option will only take you so far. So, when you ask whether you should go out on your own, look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself - you can do difficult things. Interestingly, these are the words of wisdom you share with your children on almost a daily basis. So, take your own advice and take the plunge. What’s the worst that can happen?
With love and hindsight,
Nic, just older (and hopefully) wiser in 2024
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Mel: Our guest on this episode is Nic Neal who is a freelance people and culture strategy consultant, but until very recently was the head of people in operations at the brand experience agency, Owl Live, which is where she'd worked for over 15 years. That is quite a jump for a self-confessed control freak that likes to play it safe.
Max: She has built her career on her innate people skills, starting as an intern while at Uni and worked her way up to the business as it grew from just three people to over 55. She found her flow in the people space, falling in love with thinking and about how people work and behave.
Mel: Nic says clarity always comes from engagement, not thought, you just need to dive in take chances and go and grab what the world has to offer.
Welcome to our sofa, Nic.
Nic: That's a bit strange listening to somebody talk about you and your whole life flashing before your eyes. Thank you.
Max: Get prepared for the next 45 minutes is going to be very much about that. So yeah. Welcome to the podcast and the Elevate sofa.
Nic: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a nice operation here. I'm very impressed.
Mel: Thanks. For those that don't know you, Nic, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your background.
Nic: So I am now a people and culture strategy consultant. But that title is relatively new, it's months old. My career was really spent at one kind of key agency, which was Owl Live, brand experience agency, based in Liverpool, which is where I live. And I started there as an intern, fresh out of the box, and just basically worked my way up. And if you'd asked me, even 12 months ago, where would I be in 10 years time, I probably would have said there to be honest.
This new role is a really exciting new venture for me. And yeah, really keen to see what it has to offer.
Mel: And it's a really exciting time to get you on the sofa. Because I think for so many people at their careers, especially when you've been at one brand for a long time or one place for a long time. That pivotal moment where you make that decision to go, you know what I'm going to try something new, whether that's starting your own journey or going to a different company, that point at which you go, or it's time to change, is a really interesting point. So we're delighted to have you on the sofa now, so we can share some of those secrets and tips and explore some of that journey with you.
Nic: Yeah, absolutely.
Max: I'm keen to ask, how would your friends describe you?
Nic: They would probably say that I am a people person. Funnily enough.
Mel: Shocker.
Nic: Surprise, surprise. And I think people would say I was confident. And I think that's always...
Max: This is not people. How would your friends describe friends?
Nic: My friends, Okay, let's get a little bit deeper then. I would say they think I am their therapist. I'm often the person that they come to for advice, the life advice, the serious advice. I'm busy. A lot of the time they describe me. But yeah, people warm, kind hearted person that likes reruns of friends. It's probably all that for me.
Max: No one's gonna hold you to that. That's fine.
Nic: I will have you offer with any friends quiz.
Mel: Good to know, if there is a friends section.
Max: And why in terms of that life advice, the counsellor often things like that. Why have you taken that role within the friendship group?
Nic: I think I'm the big sister. I am the oldest in my family. And I've got quite a blended family in that I've got one sister, a half sister, a half brother, even though we don't do titles, it's all kind of brothers and sisters. And I think I've always just played that older sibling kind of role. I've always wanted to protect people. I've always wanted to be the sensible one. I've always wanted to give good advice. I've wanted people to be able to rely on me to depend on me. That's always been quite important. I've wanted to create stability for the people. I have wanted to create an environment where they feel comfortable and secure. So yeah, I tend to be the person that gives mortgage advice and advice on boyfriends that I don't think hit the mark and things like that.
Max: Where does that want a need to provide stability for others coming from?
Nic: I think it mean, my parents got together when they were really, really young. They got married very quickly, they had me, I think my Mum was to be 19 when she had me, so really, really young. And I don't have a memory of them together, they divorced really, really quickly. It's actually quite sad to think that you don't have a memory of your parents, kind of like happily together, but their divorce and their relationship whilst kind of really fighting over me and my sister, it was difficult, it was full of a lot of conflict. They were two very oppositional people. And neither were necessarily wrong in how they felt, it just was expressed in wildly different ways.
So I found myself kind of being in the middle on that spectrum, and really trying to find the harmony and trying to protect my little sister, because I didn't want her to see so much conflict and so much arguing. There really was quite a lot of resentment between my Mum and Dad. And to a certain degree, I think there still is. And you just want to you adapt, don't you as a child, you kind of reach or adapt a child's state and want to protect and want to make sure everything's okay. And I think that's really the role that I tried to play and bear in mind. At this point, I'm probably like, five maximum.
So it's quite young, when this is happening. And my parents kind of did go through the court route, which meant that me and my sister were pulled into welfare officer meetings, and there was a lot of arguments about who we would live with. And that probably made growing up feel not that safe at times.
I was born in Cardiff, which is actually where all of my family are from. And I'm really proud to be from Wales. But my mum kind of moved us to Liverpool quite quickly. She met someone else and remarried, which really separated us from my dad, which upset him really, really greatly. And so just being caught in that really kind of like conflict ridden environment, I think made me crave that sense of security, and just wanting to keep everything really steady and stable. And as a result, my sister always came to me for advice. And, we kind of I really stayed together as a lot to some for quite some time.
Mel: You get that real sense of connection, I guess, through the letter and the way that you write in your story of helping bridge gaps, bring people together, find ways to bring out the best in people. So to think like it from such a young age to have learned that skill. How else has that played out in your life? What other things have you seen that bear fruit in?
Nic: Well, interestingly, every now and again, you do one of these psychometric tests, because you need a piece of paper to tell you who you are, figure out for myself.
Max: We talking kind of your yellow, red cross...
Nic: This was the Gallup test. So it's all about your strengths. And all of the strengths that will come to the table would be restorative, harmonizer, collaborator, bringing people together. So that was very much kind of what I was all about.
But then, I guess after we had moved to Liverpool, which was quite scary moving to a completely different city, with a load of people that have got this really harsh, different accent, using words that you don't understand. I've been embraced into the scouts culture now. I was really fortunate actually, because I had a fantastic school experience then, like I sat in the middle in that I was clever enough to get good grades. But it wasn't like a real, real nerdy geek. I was good enough to be in the play but it wasn't the main part. I was good enough to be in the sports teams but I was never the captain.
I was never the best at anything. I was always just kind of in the middle, which was great. Because I didn't get in trouble with my parents. I had a really good kind of like school environment. And I think I really found a love then for performing and singing and being on the stage. I think a lot of people in this industry really find their feet with performance. Like why do we...
Max: Do we have several of their rights.
Mel: It's really interesting threads through it actually, but also I think, as parents as we all know now and you're trying to think about opportunities for your kids to go and learn things and life skills and all of that actually performing arts is one of the things that I am now thinking from public speaking and connecting with people and empathy. I learned so much that it's not really surprised to see so many people in our industry but it's been a really interesting read thread through.
Max: There are four people, than me, the fifth in terms of accounts that have had that performing arts, theatre, drama.
Mel: Please tell me there is video evidence somewhere if you're in a girl bands on play because when you… _____
Nic: There are videos, my husband hasn't even been able to see these videos yet and he is desperate and so no you're not gonna get to see any video evidence sadly. Couple of wines in you might get me on a karaoke and that's about as far as it will go.
But yeah, I did really find my feet with performance and singing was more it for me than anything else. I really loved just singing on the stage, singing for an audience like I really loved being in front of an audience. And I do think it's helped me be a better presenter on stage now.
Interestingly, when I get a CV and I've sat in got 1000 interviews, I see that somebody has got a performing arts background, always pricks my ears up. And I'm really, really keen to hear more about their story because I do think it really equips you quite well for this industry. And I really wasn't that bothered about going to UNI. I was like, so happy performing. I was in this band that I genuinely thought it was going to be famous.
Max: What was it called?
Nic: It was it was called Pure, don't laugh. And we performed at like, Everton’s football ground and we were on Telly and things were like happening. But sadly, the dream died quite quickly. And whilst I wasn't that bothered about going to UNI, one day, I did genuinely think I was going to have a career just doing the pubs and clubs. I thought that was brilliant money to be made in it and thought screw it. Let's just go in circle the clubs.
A friend of mine in school, went to a University Open Day, and used to be able to not go to school on the days that you went to University Open Day. So I was like, I'll tag along. That sounds great. And she was going to the Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts, which is called LIPA for short. It's the school that Paul McCartney started for the arts. It's quite a prestigious school. It's very small, the classes are really, really small. But really, really prestigious school.
She said you want to come along this open day and see what it's about and the course that she was interested in was arts, music and entertainment management. All of a sudden, I was like, you know what actually really love performance. But this could be a really good opportunity to combine this love of performance, with something that felt a bit more serious and something that I probably should be doing at this point.
So I went with her to the Open Day and I fell in love. The facilities were amazing. There were so many kind of like wonderful stories and because I had this connotation with Paul McCartney loads of like, famous actors and musicians would come and do seminars, and it just felt like a wonderful place to be. So I did apply. And they offered me an unconditional place which if you remember back in the days of Uni, you had to get a certain number of points due to certain universities.
This one was like, no, we want you. We want you. We don't care what results you get, like we want you to come. And I felt really bad because the girl that I went with, she actually didn't get in, which made me feel really quite guilty. I was so happy and I needed to take this opportunity.
But there was something in me going, Nic, this is 10 minutes down the road. It is a nice opportunity. But are you really playing it a bit safe here are you just kind of like sticking in your hometown, not really branching out, not really pushing yourself and kind of push past all of that and went to this amazing school. It was really, really amazing.
But definitely I didn't embrace Uni life. I had a boyfriend at the time. We'd been together already for about a year. We lived together, I literally moved out on my house, like really quite a young age and part-time worked in a phone shop. And I was probably living actually the life of a 40 something when actually I probably should have been out, Quad Vods and all the other stuff that comes with this, like freedom of student life. And I think had already just like packed myself into this kind of like almost like 2.4 children type setup.
Max: Is that a security thing, do you think? You mentioned in your letter, the whole safety element and playing it safe and perhaps not going for it and things like that? And I wonder with that relationship flat, teenage, well, 18 or 19? Is that a safety thing do you think from kind of perhaps younger years, that stability?
Nic: I really think it was. I think it just felt like well, there's a good opportunity on the table. Take the one that's in front of you. Why would you go in put yourself out there for something that's unknown, something that you don't know about when there's something good enough right here. So why?
Max: So you think you do better at that time?
Nic: You know what, from an education standpoint, it was probably the better choice but from a social standpoint and I don't mean social in going out, I mean, making connections with different types of people, people from different backgrounds and things like that, having a bit more independence and not maybe being in a relationship so young. That is the bit that I really wish that I would have had the opportunity to do. I wish I'd done a bit more travel, I wish I'd just kind of been brave enough then to just try and do something different. But like I say, just felt like the opportunity in front of me was there.
Mel: But it was this quite serendipitous moment. And he talked to a lot of people across the board actually of those moments, sort of the sliding doors, I guess, analogy of just taking that chance of “Oh, you know what, I'll join you for a crack” and just get out of school for a day and lo and behold you walk in somewhere and go, this is where I should be. This is brilliant. And you get an unconditional place. There are certain things that feel. I can also understand that it's really interesting at that point that you wrestled with yourself a little bit to almost challenge it.
So it's almost like there's that thought in that it's going, is there something more and should that go bigger? So what does that? Because I guess there's lots of people that go through those moments in their career, like, I'm sure you felt that hour where you're like, “Oh, my God, is this the right time to jump?” And should I do this? So what sort of stuff was going through your head at that point to help you make that decision to go, “You know what? Now, I'm going to stay in and do this thing as opposed to go and explore.”
Nic: I think the confidence that I had in myself at that point was probably quite low. I was really good at being confident on a stage. But actually, the voice inside was probably just a really quiet one. And I think it was a really easy voice to just squash and go, don't be stupid, this is a really good option. So, why not just go for it.
I probably would have just continued life like that. I think what happened next to me was quite a difficult kind of fork in the road and I very unexpectedly fell pregnant, and nothing could have prepared me for that outcome at all. It was a time where I felt quite alone. It wasn't actually that I was alone.
I didn't talk to very many people about it. I talked to my Mum. It's really odd, she knew. I asked her. I was working in the phone shop one day and that was the day that I found out and I phoned my Mum to come and pick me up and I got in the car. And she just knew and I don't know how she did. But I think that's something that it's a Mum’s instinct, sometimes.
Mel: Mum’s always know. I tell my son this all the time, I know everything!
Nic: She said, look, you've got to make this decision. But whatever you choose, I will support you. If that means me stopping everything to raise a child then that's what we'll do. If you want support, because you want to make a different decision, then that's what we'll do. And I don't think I appreciate it at the time and I think it was only writing the letter recently that I really appreciated how big a deal, that piece of advice was. Because she was really willing to put to stop everything in order for me to have the kind of life that I wanted. And I think I've only just really connected with how meaningful that probably was.
I don't talk to many people about this. In fact, I could probably count on one hand, the number of people that know, because I did eventually decide that I wasn't going to continue with the pregnancy. It is a really difficult decision for anybody to be faced with no matter what their circumstances are.
I sadly don't think that we talk about this enough. And I think we probably should normalise the conversation a little bit more so that the people that are going through it feel a little bit less alone. I didn't have a podcast to listen to. I didn't have even social media at this point. I was 18 years of age and I just basically saw my life flash before my eyes.
I made a decision that I felt was right for me. But I think what it probably did is made me think right, okay, well, if I'm going to have made such a big decision, I need to make something of my life and make sure that I feel like it was a decision that was the right one.
There's definitely been moments where it's been a bit hard to think about it, but it was right.
Max: It was what taste right. Maybe saying before we share, actually listening to and reading the letter, things like that we share loads of commonalities, I think more so than I actually thought or realised. And I completely agree. I think the whole premise of going through that and actually at times it can happen accidentally. And actually there are a point you mentioned a fork in the road where a decision needs to be made because it is life changing and the impact is huge if you're going to take it seriously.
And I think it the same way and obviously not as a comparison, but miscarriages and things like that as well and especially blokes. And so this is me kind of saying it from a bloke’s perspective, women go through it way harder, but it just doesn't get spoken about enough. And to a point where people can then feel like they can ask advice, or share a story or share an experience and things.
And so I hear you, and I'm glad that you kind of sharing it now. So thank you.
How was the letter writing then as a, I was gonna say an exercise, it's not really an exercise. It's kind of more than that, isn't it? How did you find that as a process, let's call it and an activity?
Nic: Yeah, it definitely didn't feel like an activity, it felt a bit like, you go into the loft, and you open up all the old boxes, and you get all the old pictures and the old clothes you used to wear and it transports you back to this like place in time. And it's like you remember it like yesterday, all of a sudden, it kind of felt like that.
In some ways, there were like some gorgeous moments. I was like, that was great. There were some other moments that I've got to be honest, they've like tingled on the surface for a few days, my poor husband is like you're in a world of your own at the moment. And I think having the opportunity to write this letter has really brought a lot to the surface.
I think it's one of the reasons why I do feel comfortable talking about some of the more difficult moments because sometimes it's nice to let it out and let it go.
So thank you for the opportunity.
Max: What were some of the tingly ones and what were some of the ones that were you enjoy tapping those memories? Let's not go into them in depth, but just what were some of the kind of the thoughts.
Nic: Some of the amazing projects that I've had the opportunity of working on, I've been able to work with some incredible household brands. I remember my journey with Owl kind of shifting from smaller companies that were not really particularly well known. My dad kind of go in “Are you sure this is the career path for you?” Like what's going on and then go, “Oh, Dad, Google or Adidas” and he's like, “Oh, you've got a serious job.” And I'm like “Yes, yes, it is actually serious.”
There were some lovely moments like that, and actually just kind of thinking about how my journey without kind of really started. I ended up just meeting Antony, who is the owner of Owl, like in a neighbor's party. He said, you like events? In fact, the reason why he said “you like events” is because I did get into Uni thinking I would explore the music industry and quickly pivoted, I got asked to, I got assigned to the graduation ball is like my kind of like project to look after. And so all of a sudden was like looking after this graduation ball thinking, “Oh, yeah, I feel like this is like a really good path for me”
And my neighbour had told him about it. He said, “Oh, come to this party. There's somebody that I want you to meet. It's a guy that has an events agency. I think you get on really, really well.” So me and Antony talked all night. In fact, I remember my boyfriend at the time getting really, really nervous, definitely not they get it. Getting really jealous. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to put my brave pants on. I'm going to call this guy tomorrow. And I'm going to ask him for if I can work for him for free.
You can't say no to somebody wanting to work for you for free. So, phoned him and I'm like, “Hi, yeah, we met yesterday. Just so, maybe, you know, can I maybe come work for you for free?” He's like, “no.”
Mel: I can totally see and saying something like that as well.
Nic: No, thank you. I was like, “Ah, okay, like, I'd like practice in mirror.”
Max: What do you mean no.
Nic: I'm trying to remember I think it must have been there wasn't maybe enough work at the time or something like that. There was definitely a reason for it. But I said, Look, don't worry, if you change your mind, you know where I am? And yeah, cried a little. And then afterwards, he phoned me back and said, no, go on actually, that makes sense. Why don't you come and join us? I was like, okay, that's brilliant. And I was like, if I do well, for the first three months, you think we can make it six months? And he said, yeah, so I ended up doing seven month placement.
Max: For free?
Nic: It started off free.
Mel: So don't tell me that 10 years wasn't free.
Nic: 10 years wasn't free. I think at one point, it works as well to 30 pound a week, but I didn't care. I would have paid him to work. And I think so many people in this industry kind of you feel so passionate about it that you just want the experience and so that.
Max: A lot of people can't and I hear that, but it sounds quite romantic that you could afford to not work or earn for six months, to go and explore this.
Nic: Well, no, no, no, no, let me correct you. I just worked in the nighttime. So I would work in a bar. And I'd work for Owl in the day. And that's just the way that you'd had to do it and back then I didn't have like financial support from family or anything like that. We just didn't really have a lot of money around us when we were growing up. So it's like, “well, if you want to do this, you're gonna have to go work in a in a bar.” So that's the way that we did it.
Owl was three people at the time, it was in a tiny broom cupboard on a little road above a pharmacy. And I think what was great about it is that we had to do everything. So I would chase the invoices, but would also deliver the event. And then you'd also have to go and like buy everything. And then you'd also have to do… I was cold calling at one point, God, don't ever want to do that again. But yeah, at one point was like, “Hi, do you want an event?”
So we literally did everything but whilst I'm kind of pleased to be out of that bit now, it actually really, does a lot for your grit and your determination and your work ethic, because you see the energy that has to go behind building these businesses. And we all we all kind of played a role there.
Mel: Obviously, it was brilliant, and I share some of that having joined Iris, although slightly later, but Iris experience, there were four of us tearing wristbands at like 2 o'clock in the morning and stuff like that.
But like you say, there's something really amazing. And obviously, you're still the MD there and you've seen this business grow, like not just grow, but stellar, like straight line up over the course of that time, and to have been there at the beginning to see where it is now.
That must be have been quite a journey and you talk a little bit in the letter about some of the client journeys that you've had, and things like that. But tell us a little bit about that journey.
Nic: Yeah, I think it's definitely given me huge appreciation for the back of house operation that makes an agency work. And I think that's what has helped me in the people part of the role that I've done, because it's not just people processes for people sake, it's to run a business and to think about how commercially a business is going to run. And I think that kind of like early experience really struck me in good stead to understand the P&L has got to balance like you've got to really be mindful of your overheads. You've got to make sure that productivity is high, like all of these things that aren't really that sexy, are necessary for businesses to survive. And I think, I'm not sure I would have necessarily grasped that had I just gone into the people space, in that kind of traditional way.
I think it really did kind of help me understand that. And, I love delivering events, I loved being hands on with clients, I had some gorgeous clients that I just travelled the world with. And now I look back and think they were probably the heydays, like when you'd go on, we had on site visits to Abu Dhabi, which was the best bid, it wasn't the actual delivery of the event, it was like the piece before we checking everything out. And just making sure that all these hotels and restaurants and experiences are brilliant. It was like, this is amazing. I'm being paid to do this.
So there were just some like gorgeous highlights and I really did kind of like work my way up from intern to like assistant to manager. Then, within five years, I had reached a point where I was head of operations, which still require quite a lot of frontline delivery. I was still working on some of the kind of juicier projects that we were delivering, but actually starting to be seen as a bit more of a senior role within the business.
Antony and I had a really good relationship. There was always a lot of trust there and it was nice to kind of feel that start to grow this business together. I mean, his name has always been like over the door. But I feel like sometimes I've wanted to wrestle him for it, because I feel like I've put just as much effort and energy into it at times. And that's something that we laugh about a lot.
So, we did kind of really, really enjoy those years and reaching that kind of like head of operations point, really started to shift when I took on one project that probably is the project that may be slightly broke me. It was say like 2013 and we were working with a really, really big brand on a really, really big launch. But there wasn't very much time to kind of get this project delivered. It was the biggest Patriot ever done. In fact, I remember that in the pitch dark. I mean, there's always a cock up somewhere isn't there, we're in the pitch dark there was on the Meet the team page, where it listed all of the different roles of all the different team members. There have been a misprint, and my name was next to each role. So when we got in to do the actual pitch, I was like, “Oh, hi, I'm Nicola Neal.” And they were like, “Oh, you're Nicola Neal.” You're next to every factor, and described next to every single role. And weirdly enough, that's kind of what ended up happening because the project snowballed out a ridiculous pace.
We probably didn't know the brand as well as we would have liked to have known them with that much time to deliver, you wanted to be able to make instinctive choices for them, and you couldn't because you were still getting to know them. But they needed things fast. And they had a lot of pressure from their senior teams to get things had to be perfect.
It was a very perfectionist way of working. The client was starting to get a little bit snippy, I was like starting to work a ridiculous number of hours and it was getting to the point where the team wasn't that big. And I was under so much pressure to get everything right, that I couldn't get help either because the time it would have taken to brief a team in and to get somebody to actually help would have taken more time than to actually do the job itself. I found myself like working all through the night, but it was the only time the client wouldn't email me. And that was like my period of peace.
It was quite suffocating. To a certain degree, it kind of like made me fall out of love with events a little bit at the time, which is actually really sad to think about. Now that I think about it, but it probably did, it probably did make me fall out of love and God like the there was so much pressure, everything was going wrong. The rehearsal date was a mess. It was a car crash, it's an absolute car crash. And then it's almost like one minute past midnight on show day. Everything clicked into place and tie. Now there wasn't one hitch, it was the most beautiful event I've ever produced. It was huge. It was multimillion pound project. It was stunningly beautiful. And I didn't even say thank you after it. And I was just like, Oh, I feel like I've lost years and all you want is a thank you.
That kind of made me feel a bit like you know what I need a bit of a break from being on this frontline and that was when that kind of head of operations roll out kind of really started to kick in a little bit more. I think my intention was to go back to still delivering kind of big projects. But actually, I really started to fall in love with this more back of house kind of operation, supporting the people delivering projects, helping them make sure they're resourced properly, like, I wanted to be the support that I didn't feel like I was able to have when I was delivering that project.
In fact, I remember saying to Antony at the time, I want to go and work in a factory. I want to go work in a factory because I want to do something so mundane and so kind of monotonous because I can't stretch my brain any further. So actually to be in this head of operations role, supporting the team felt like things were starting to click into place a lot more.
Mel: Some of the things we've talked about with other guests is that sense of not earning your stripes, I don't think that's the right way to describe it. But understanding the events world and playing different roles and doing the days that you understand because when you take on some of those bigger roles or side roles or support roles, or you go into consultancy, or you run your own business, understanding the world that we are in properly allows you to be even better at what you do. You almost can't shortcut that.
Nic: Yeah and I think that to particularly be a good leader, you need to have good empathy. And that's exactly what you're talking about. It's been able to say, I've walked a mile in your shoes, I know exactly how you're feeling right now. I get it! I think goes a really long way and that's definitely the role that I wanted to start to play for the team now.
Max: Do you think you're always destined for that role, given what we said earlier about this mothering type within your friendship group, but then equally protection of your sister and then in terms of how things have led through and obviously the kind of path that you've taken?
Nic: Yeah, I think so. I think I've never actually thought about it like that. But I think you're absolutely right. I definitely wanted to be that person that would protect the team. In fact, I remember being on my first maternity leave, and I met up with a load of the girls from the office and was just checking in to see how things were going and they said we miss you we feel like we need you and we want to be looked after by you. It actually made me end up cutting my maternity leave a bit shorter than I intended because I just felt like that was a place that was really, really needed. So, yeah, I think there was a bit of that going on in there.
Max: So if you take then that career and on paper and we were talking before I think it was cost aware that the Prince William I think was met him over Starbucks and things. You've got this 27 roles within a single organisation from there up to CEO type level in Starbucks or what have you and over a 20 something year career, you've obviously had a shorter one in that respect, but still gone through the kind of ranks, if you will, within the organisation.
Briefly tell us then about obviously kind of climbing into the more senior roles and you're saying in the letter and obviously our conversations where there have been opportunities to follow, what would be typically that next sensible move. Tell us a bit briefly about what that move is, but then equally how things have unfolded? Or how it then unfolded?
Nic: Yeah. So, from that head of operations role to and then probably around 2020, the pandemic years, like things kind of shifted out a little bit. Obviously, things shifted a lot for everybody during the pandemic years, but around kind of 2021 and Tony had decided that he was going to take a step back from a kind of hands on MD role.
It was around this time that I was starting to think, “Okay, Nic, what's next. You've got to start thinking about what it is that you want from your career.” Is it kind of working on more project related stuffs are really helping the teams on making sure projects were profitable, and they were resourced well and they had good suppliers and doing all of that nice department lead stuff? Is it something that feels a bit more kind of like people centric? Or he asked me if I'd wanted to go for the MD role.
I thought about it for probably 34 seconds and I don't know, it just really, really quickly knew that wasn't a route that I wanted to take and a couple of people spoke to me about it. In fact, the Lauren McClure, who went on to become the MD, who was brilliant. She did say “Me? Are you mad? Do not want to go for this.” Because the two main people in the running were two people from inside the agency already, Lauren and Muriel. And she was like, “Are you sure you don't want to go for this.”
And I was just really, really sure that actually, I felt like I knew enough around how to run a business, that this was going to become more about P&L than it was going to be about the thing that I really valued most, which was the people, the connections, and really kind of being in that type of position.
So, I quickly turned that down, which was actually a wonderful career opportunity for me, because it meant that I could facilitate the MD appointment process as well. So, it was lovely to be in a position to interview and really do like a strong MD assessment process.
It was the point where I thought, you know what, maybe the people route is for me, and it was only really from having a mentor at the time. And she wasn't necessarily an official mentor, but a lady called Amanda Vine who was consulting generally for the business at the time. We were having quite a lot of one to ones and I don't know, every now and again, you just feel like you really connect with somebody and you feel like you can open up to them, you feel really psychologically safe with them.
Amanda was that for me. She held space for me, was so simple, but just let me be who I was. She reflected some of what she thought were my strengths back to me. All of a sudden, this idea of a more formal people routes started to take a little bit more shape. Now usually people in the people space have kind of gone down a more traditional HR routes. You'll go and do your CIPD Level 3, and then Level 5, and you work your way up quite systematically. And I was like, I can't do a people routes formally, like I need to study, I'd need to go back and do this. And she said…
Mel: This is difficult in the world that says “I can.”
Nic: Absolutely. And she was like, “You can do it.” She's like “You can do it.” I know lots of people that are doing it with the same kind of experience as you like, you need to get out of your own way, and really think about it. And I don't know, I think that was my first mentor experience and was absolutely transformational.
So I did sign myself up for a CIPD which is Chartered Institute of Personal Development qualification at the highest level. So like you've got the experience, that means that you can fast track your way across Level 3 and Level 5, which was nice. And I said to Antony, I want to be the head of people for this business. And he was super supportive and said, “Okay, great.” It meant that I got to work with Lauren and Muriel who were appointed to be joint managing partners of the business. And we were a female force to be reckoned with.
That probably is one of my career highlights is working in a truly collaborative, safe, but positively challenging environment. We were navigating an agency during what has been the most crazy couple of years for our industry. It was amazing and the people responded so well. Everything just felt like it.
Mel: I really wanted to ask you about this because you didn't just navigate it. You were award winning with a massively engaged team running a completely virtual operation, which are largely kept right after the pandemic as well, where lots of agencies were bringing people back in.
So I'd love to ask you a little bit about that. Because actually building successful teams, yes, you were the head of our team, our whole business, but actually just any leader, any manager trying to build a successful team, what are some of the things you learned during that period that you could share?
Nic: So I think what was really fortunate is like the world all of a sudden was waking up to the fact that we all going to have to change the way that we work in order to get the best out of people. This was good for me, because it felt like a mindset that I already had and our wasn't a very award hungry kind of agency. It's just not something that they've ever really wanted to do. And I was like, “No, I want one, and I want it to be for people.”
I promised myself, I would never go for something unless I felt like we could deliver on it. This is the point where we were recruiting like crazy as well, a lot of other agencies as well. I wanted to create a compelling point of difference. So, I wanted to be able to sit on that call and say, “This is why you should come and work for Reuters and be able to deliver on it.” Like being able to authentically deliver on the employer brand messages that you were giving really meant a lot to me.
I opt all of the kind of listening strategies throughout the business. You do not build a good people strategy unless you listen to the people that are in it. I just really tried to switch my ears on and make sure that we were finding ways for people to communicate what was working for them and what wasn't working for them and build a programme around that.
When I say “we,” I kind of worked with an amazing person on my team called Sarah. She's our people and culture manager yet we developed a really good recruitment process we delivered. We overhauled our rewards and benefits. And we try to make them as progressive as possible and not stick to the standard stuff that you get every single day. We tried to be really generous with people that were going to be leaving the business or start families and things like that.
I wanted to also for us to get a reputation for being the kind of business that didn't just measure retention as its success measure, I find retention just like a really funny thing, because it is a sign of people wanting to stay in your business. But I cared about being an employee that was also okay to see you go if that was going to be the right option for you. Businesses that really tried to hold their people against their will kind of, I don't know, it just irks me slightly.
I think kind of that reputation started to ripples throughout the industry and then people started to really come to the agency because they knew that we cared about people. We weren't caring about people just because it made sense for the business it's because it made sense for them as well. It got to the point where it's like guys, I think I think we're ready to go for an award and carefully chose campaign have got a Best Places to Work kind of list.
The reason why I chose that is because I did a questionnaire with me, and I had to tell them about all the different things that we would do. But it also did one with the people. And that's what actually mattered to me is that people would be verifying that if I'm saying that I think we've got a got this, that and the other that we actually have. We got on the list. We featured really high on the list given it was our first time around. So, kind of like top 30 agency, which just felt like a cherry on top of all of the hard work and all of the heart energy. And for me personally, it was a piece of validation. It was okay, you know, you kind of went off on this route, and you didn't necessarily have all of the credentials for it. You did it.
Max: I was just going to say so with that and that highs that you've then found and secured and that validation and things.
Take us then to the point of deciding actually, it's not for you anymore. But I know there's quite a blunt right turn here but I think for those listening as well as this sounds, again, almost fairy tale building and growing and things but the reality is, then there's a big change that happens and haven't seen obviously recently, but you've then become self-employed and things like that.
Why and how has that been? What's the lessons and learnings but why first?
Nic: Well, to be honest, it was that award. That award – Owl Live completed it. As soon as you kind of like win something like that which was a personal goal for me. I'm not saying that it's like the benchmark that anybody else should necessarily be measuring themselves against. But for me, it was the thing that I wanted to achieve and I've done it.
I got really quite with myself and said to myself, “What do you want next out of this.” And I knew that the likelihood was, “I'd just be doing the same thing, again.” I might be doing it slightly differently and maybe in a slightly different market, but I was going to be doing the same thing again.
This probably happened at a similar time, really, to my relationship with Elevate funnily enough kind of really starting to build. So I think I've said before, I think Elevate has opened ridiculous doors for me in terms of access to a community of people that genuinely want good things for you. And you haven't paid me to say that. That is genuinely how I feel. And I think, you know, there were loads of people in there. Zoe Tuffs, is one of them from Times Ten. A castle from Emma Castle from Castlebell.
Loads of these people around me are just giving me loads of confidence in myself. And it just something clicked. And I can't put it down to a big, big moment. But something clicked where I thought, I think I need to do something different. And I need to think about what moving away from this role in this business looks like.
Honestly, one day, I just handed my notice, and it wasn't a big, sit down and think and plan and write out what I'm going to say, I just went into Antony one day and said, I think I need to call it a day with the words.
Mel: What a difference from, to be in a business for 10 years to get to that point, and to just have that moment, compared to all those years before where you're trying to make that decision. And you almost didn't have the confidence and the things that to maybe push yourself out of those comfort zones and go. But for a lot of people taking that leap, is a big out leap. And for you, it was a little cooling that got louder that you just, that's it, I'm gonna go in one day. And this is it.
Nic: That's it. And I knew that I had to go in there and do it. In fact, I said to myself, I need a sign that this is okay and I put on LinkedIn. This was about like an hour before we went into Antony and went to LinkedIn and a saw, I think it might have been like a Jay Shetty video or something. And he was looking straight into the camera. Like he was looking into my soul. And he just said, “Do it, you're gonna think to yourself, why didn't I do this sooner?”
And I've got no idea what he was talking about. But I was like, “Okay, I'll go do that thing.” So influenced. And yeah, and there was a compelling argument for me to stay. And I just felt really resolute. I don't know.
It's like, it was something physical or visceral, that told me I had to just do something for me and my family. My husband was like, “What the bloody hell are you doing?” Like, this sounds mental. Like we're comfortable. We are safe. This is great. It's enjoyable. It's like I didn't enjoy my job.
That was it. I was like, if I don't do it now. In fact, I said to myself, If my daughter, who's 5 right now, she's a feisty little character. If she came up to me and said, Mom, what should I do in this situation? I'd want to be able to say, be brave and take the leap. And I can't do that, if I'm not willing to do it myself. And that was the point.
Max: How was that leap gone? So for anyone that is looking to start a business venture onto the road as a freelancer, become self-employed, as someone who is box fresh, of literally several months into it, and things and already successful in terms of the work that you're delivering in the business that you've won and picked up?
Some of the key lessons or maybe some of the challenges you found and that you wish, maybe known a bit more about, but equally, what was some of the highs and the lows I think is important to share?
Nic: Yeah, I think from a highs’ perspective, I tried to speak to as many people who were new were in a similar space, people that were consultants, or freelance or just in control of their own kind of income and the projects that they worked on and not one person told me, “Don't do it.” This is really dangerous. This is really silly. And actually, loads of people said, “Guess what, if it doesn't work, you can just go and get another job.” And I was like, Yeah, that's very, very true.
That's what helped me build a little bit of confidence. I mean, I'm a few months in. This is brand new for me, and I'm trying to be really awake to the reality of working for yourself. I'm learning a lot about my own productivity, like it's not necessarily the same every single day. Like, I'm probably working more at the moment, but I've got to write because it's all on me now. There's a big lot of pressure on me.
It makes me think differently about taking long holidays all of a sudden, which I've previously very much liked to do, but I think they're fun challenges to get into and it's just been a necessary move for me to feel alive again, and feel like I can add value and feel like I can make a bigger difference by working with lots of different companies and is soaking up all those experiences.
There will be bad days, I'm sure. And it will be, it will be difficult. And I might decide that actually, I am an indoor cat. And I like to know when my belly is gonna get stroked, and I want a full-time job again. But for now, I think it's time to be brave, and embrace the challenge and take it for all it's worth.
Mel: What skills or, I guess, tools or whatever in your toolbox have been the most valuable as you've entered into this new era?
Max: You become outside cat?
Mel: Yeah.
Nic: I know, it rains sometimes.
Max: Mentioned it earlier and I was like so relevant in terms of indoor cat verus outdoor cat.
Nic: Yeah, I think my husband's always been an outdoor cat. And he started his business only two years ago. So it's been really, really fortunate to have a front row seat to his journey working for himself from a full-time role. So that has definitely helped.
I think the power of networking in the community and the people that you know is one that I've had to really draw on trying to speak to as many people as possible, has really, really helped. Fortunately, I don't tell him, I think I'm quite good at this. I think I am and now actually speaking to other people, speaking to new clients and new contact, I’m like, I know what I'm talking about. And actually, now I've got like maybe 20 years experience that's revealing my age. And so I've got stuff to draw on. And, yeah, I'm going to try and make it work.
Mel: Is there anything you wish someone had told you before you went to do it that you didn't know already? That you're like, “Oh, I wish someone would have said that to me?” Or let me know that that was going to be a thing, like you say, like working more hours not taking long holidays? Is there anything else?
Max: Not relating to that money or other ways and loopholes?
Nic: That is a new minefield that I didn't quite prepare myself for? To be honest. No, you know what, I think I've gone into this with my eyes open, actually. And that's just credit to the people that are around me and asking good questions. So that's been incredibly helpful, then the biggest thing I've struggled with is just being brave and doing it. But sometimes, you've just got to walk in there and do it.
Max: I mean, that kind of perfectly then encapsulates the conversation. And we're talking about the piece of advice. Obviously, this session, and the letter to your younger self is very much around. If that one piece of advice, good or bad, so good that you then have to share it, what would that be?
Nic: It will be “Be brave and back yourself.” “Clarity comes from engagement, not thought” I absolutely love that quote because we can overthink, we can think things through and plan things out. And actually, sometimes you just got to go and do the damn thing. And then figure it out afterwards. And I think that has given me more clarity and more comfort that, “Okay, if it doesn't work out, you will always find something else.”
Max: And so repeat that one. Again, clarity…
Nic: “Clarity comes from engagement, not thought.” So go and do it. Don't just think about it.
Mel: Do like a list, though, of all the pros and cons and what could happen and spending a good couple of hours. I think it's brilliant, because it plays out so much in your journey, those moments where you just go, Yeah, I'm just gonna go do it.
Nic: I know. And you know what, I also love a list. This is the one thing I've never written a list or a list of pros and cons on ever. Maybe I'm mad. Who knows? But I don't know sometimes. You've got instinct is just there. And you think it's the right thing to do.
Max: Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing being open and honest on the sofa. And the journey as well. I think it's really insightful. Obviously the shift and more recent change as well as what's driven it. So yeah, appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Mel: Thank you.
Nic: Thank you for having me. It was a lovely experience talking to you.
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Max: As refined that one.
Mel: Obviously we know Nic really well. One of our partners and Nic has been on the board for a couple of years now. And I love that you still discover stuff about people that you didn't know. And the thing we know about Nic anyway, is that she's really brave. She's really passionate. She cares so much about people, but to see where some of that stuff has come from and to what her sort of go through this process, both as a friend and close up. But to hear her talk about some of those big decisions. And so many of us are going to have those big decisions in our life where you're like, “Well, this is good and I'm comfortable and everything's great but I feel this cool to do something else.” It's brilliant sort of have a have a chance to speak to somebody going through that and I think she was super brave sharing her journey, the story of her pregnancy and just this part of her life and the sort of exciting beginnings of something new.
Max: I think, in kind of almost retrospect of that is this underlying kind of need, because of the personal upbringing she had is to find and seek safety, which I think a lot of us perhaps can lean on the side off, and we hear a lot of guests talk about this, put yourself out there and things like that. And actually, it's really hard to do.
The way that Nic explained that I thought was fascinating, especially from that perspective, at that moment, in total, there is a moment in time where actually no, this is the time for me to do it and taking that leap. And then obviously, that journey that she's then continued to a point, then actually, what's probably the most brave thing is then taking a complete right turn, a point where you're probably progressing to an MD, you're offered the opportunity to, you think actually no, that's not for me. And actually, instead, I'm gonna go and venture out onto my own, which to the probably advice for anyone else saying, “Oh, my gosh, that's terrifying.” Actually, something has said it. And you and her had the conversation about being list lovers. It's the one thing she's never written about, which I find actually quite interesting. That gut has obviously said something loud enough. And without kind of being biassed the help or the space provided by a mentor or community, like an Elevate to help her realise that.
Mel: But I think there's something really beautiful about defining your own version of success. And I think you get to a point in your career where you've done so much, and I think you do. And I've had this a lot where people you know, I spoke at an event not that long ago, where people are like, well, your head off? And where do you go next? And I think what's lovely about Nic's journey is, and that story, and I hope people will take it from it, you know, there's always another next. There's always an opportunity.
But sometimes you have to think laterally and more titles and bigger jobs and aren't necessarily the thing, you get to a point where you go, well, actually, what do I want? And where do I add value and what's exciting for me and because it gets to a point where it's not about the titles
Max: It is more, isn't it? It's about what's fulfilling, gets rich and things like that. Actually, Nic was saying prior to as well is that there's probably two more big shifts or changes, but there's a certain kind of big number coming up might have a four in it.
Mel: She might kill you for that, by the way.
Max: I'll take that.
But she was saying that there is still okay, time for a mistake, or two or a change or two. And that's okay. And I think that's something that's really, really empowering. And we were also talking and when Nic had said, is that I had always operated trying to be 10 years older in order to earn a space in a room and a conversation. And while she hadn't felt that, that was the same with her, but she did definitely feel that there's a certain level and age where it feels like your confidence aligns along with your purpose aligns and your passions aligned. And that's this moment for her where she's like, so that's me, then. This is now that the course and it seemed like that is that moment, and I found it interesting. So your point is that, it's okay.
Lovely conversation, I thought that everyone should meet Nic. She's a good egg, isn't she?
Mel: She is a good egg. I think we can't let this end without sort of touching on, the bravery to share some of those really personal stories of moments. Because I think for so many people and I'm sure some of the listeners that we have as well, you'll have those points in your life where you're at a really difficult crossroads, and you have to make some difficult decisions. And you go well, “What's life after this?” And what will happen and where does it go?
Just some of the stories that can come afterwards. There is the next point there is the story afterwards. And there is the thing and I think Nic was super brave to share some of that in the hope that people listening might find some comfort and find some way.
So one of the things we'll do in the show notes is perhaps put some links to some of those sort of organisations and places that people can go if they're finding that they are in a similar position or have people in similar positions that need some support because it's right we need to normalise some of these conversations.
A brilliant chat, super insightful and just lovely to have someone we know so well but where I feel like I've liked just as much if not more about her than I thought I would but so great to have someone who knows so well on the sofa with us where we've learned probably as much as our audience and listeners as well. Another great story indeed.
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About Elevate
Elevate is a pioneering free mentoring programme that has been designed with a specific goal in mind – to inspire, inform and empower people within the event industry.
Elevate operates thanks to the generosity of our Partners; Cvent, Jack Morton Worldwide, Live Union, Powwow Events, Protein STUDIOS (venue partner), PSP, The Production Department and We Are Collider. Our Supporters include; CastleBell Ltd, Trivandi, TRO, Xquisite Productions, SPECIAL SAUCE TRAINING LTD (training partner), Times Ten Coaching, Nic Neal (people and culture partners).
Together, we’re changing lives, careers and the events industry for the better.