Episode 19
Max Fellows
Founder, Allpoints Consultancy and Co-founder Elevate Mentoring
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING’:
Our guest on this episode is my friend Max Fellows, the founder of Allpoints, a leading growth advisory and mergers and acquisitions specialist for the creative and events industries, and co-founder, with me, of the event industry’s largest mentoring and training provider, Elevate.
With nearly 20 years of experience, Max has successfully scaled global event businesses in commercial sales roles at some of the world's biggest agencies, and now leads a team of consultants delivering best in class support, helping business owners realise their companies full potential, this covers all aspects of growth, from training, sales and AI through to PR/ Marketing and M&A. Additional achievements include his TED talk and frequent global speaking engagements and commentary across mainstream news channels.
Max is one of the best connectors I know and prioritises helping others over everything. His career success is a testament to his drive, determination, persistence, ingenuity and hard work.
He lives by the mantra of his favourite quote: 'The brave may not live forever, but the cautious will never live at all.'
Watch Max on YouTube or listen to her on Spotify or Apple podcasts
-
Hi Max aged 21 (2007)
How you made it here, to 2025, where I’m writing this letter to you, in one piece – with the motivation, positive attitude, and thirst for life and fun that you have – I have no bloody idea. (PCP - passion, curiosity and persistence/ perseverance)
Without writing a book on the subject, let’s just say that you have endured a colourful upbringing that has taught you more lessons than you consciously know right now. The realisation that you learn and grow more from bad experiences than good crops up repeatedly, serving as a valuable lesson. Your turbulent childhood – from bereavement and divorce to social services, bullying and a brain tumour has required a fair bit of treatment, but as a result, your foundations are now bomb-proof.
To summarise your younger years, you have experienced significant trauma, and at the age of 21, you lack the self-awareness or tools to address it. As a result, much of why you do things is based on what you ‘think’ is right and a tendency towards people-pleasing. But, moving out of the family home at 17 and holding down three jobs to survive, taught you to be resilient and self-sufficient.
The voids created by a lack of academic skills, emotional support, and parenting are filled with an extroverted effort with people – constant chatter, being fun, and always making others feel better about themselves. You really put in the work to develop and maintain relationships formed during this time, but the majority are quite one-sided. You realise this later in life and let go of many of these relationships (but not enough).
School was a struggle with ADHD (which you don’t get diagnosed with until your late 30s) and severe dyslexia, which made everything much more difficult. But you’re always up for a challenge, and these challenges taught you to find alternative routes, often through being more creative, practical and personable! When it comes time to decide whether to go to university, you let the self-doubt get the better of you and choose not to go. This fear of ‘traditional learning still haunts you’ but don’t worry, it will all be okay.
But know this, Max: nothing will ever be given to you, be more confident in your own abilities, and your unique attributes and be more comfortable in your own skin. When you have those bi-monthly freakouts about how well you are not doing, doubting your potential and thinking you’re not doing well enough, know that you are more than enough. But don’t let that dampen the fire.
Sports is something you are really good at and deeply connected with. You become a personal trainer and sports rehab specialist, which leads to the realisation that you are very good with people and really enjoy it. Introducing yourselves to strangers on the gym floor for months ultimately helps you hone your ability to serve and sell! But you want more and pursue bigger opportunities in London, moving into fitness equipment sales. (Don’t doubt this move for a second). The phrase out of sight, out of mind has never been truer with your ‘friendships’ here. On a positive note, one of your teammates introduces you to a senior sales role within an exhibitions business. Through drive, determination, persistence and scarcity for failure, you land companies like Ericsson helping you become head of sales. Given the size of the business, you also have to step in at times and effectively do every role within the company at some point. All of this will serve you well!
You decide to take a leap into larger London agencies. You research the top ten agencies and write a letter to each of the CEOs. From those ten letters, you get six meetings and four job offers, securing the one you really wanted.
This next ten years is all about honing your craft. You dedicate yourself to the cause, attending every social event, connecting with every person you can, and being in the mix when opportunities open up – ready to capitalise on them and say YES. There’s no quick fix, no alternative to putting in the reps, whether it’s pitching, introducing yourself on the phone, or public speaking. There are countless sayings like learn in your 20’s and earn in your 30’s (take note this is very true) the key lesson is this: you must get comfortable with being uncomfortable to grow and truly put yourself in the game. You also never actually fail, you learn.
You are an ideas person. You are really good at seeing gaps and opportunities and creating solutions, but these can often distract you from the bigger picture. Just be aware of how your brain works.
Previously, what was most important to you was money; now, it’s choice and balance. You now have the freedom to make your own choices, explore business opportunities, including making time to spend with your wife (someone said yes, you lucky man), play sports, support mental health causes (this becomes very close to you for 2 reasons) and spend as much time as you can with your kids (you have two of them and they are brilliant).
Throughout your life, there will be people who make an impact on you. Look out for these mentors and role models – they are really important to your development. Right now there are two men and two women in particular who act as your hype-people, soundboards, and anchors. In a few years, you set up a mentoring programme called Elevate to make it easier for others to find people like this.
So, young Max, always remember: no one has their shit entirely together, no matter what they say or how things may appear, so don’t worry about them. You do you, my friend. And lastly, and most importantly, Richard Branson says, 'The brave may not live forever, but the cautious will never live at all.' You have to keep putting yourself into those slightly stressful scenarios, be brave, and your personal growth will be unrivalled. As you get older and experience more of life, you’ll realise, yes! That makes total sense!
Well done mate, keep at it. I know what you are capable of, Granny Annie would be proud!
Max (2025)
-
Mel: Our guest on this episode is my friend Max Fellows, the founder of All Points, a leading growth advisory and mergers and acquisition specialist for the creative and event industries, and co-founder with me of the event industry's largest mentoring and training provider, Elevate.
With nearly 20 years of experience, Max, has successfully scaled global event businesses in commercial sales roles at some of the world's biggest agencies, and now leads a team of consultants delivering best in class support, helping business owners realize their company's full potential.
This covers all aspects of growth from training, sales and AI through to PR, marketing and M&A. Additional achievements include his TED Talk and frequent global speaking engagements and commentary across mainstream news channels. Max is one of the best connectors I know, and prioritizes helping others over everything. His career success is a testament to his drive, determination, persistence, ingenuity and hard work. He lives by the mantra of his favorite quote, “The brave may not live forever, but the cautious will never live at all.” I'm so pleased he's my guest today, and now Max is going to read his letter to his 21-year-old self.
Max: Hi, Max, aged 21, how you've made it here in 2025 where I'm writing this letter to you in one piece, with the motivation, positive attitude and thirst for life and fun that you have. I've got no bloody idea. PCP, partly down to passion, curiosity and persistence, or perseverance. Without writing a book on the subject, let's just say that you've endured a colorful upbringing, and that has taught you more lessons than you consciously know right now.
The realization that you learn and grow more from the bad experiences than the good crops up repeatedly, serving as a valuable lesson. Your turbulent childhood, from bereavement and divorce to social services, bullying and a brain tumor has required a fair bit of treatment, but as a result, your foundations are now bomb proof.
To summarize, your younger years, you have experienced significant trauma, and at the age of 21, you lack the self-awareness or tools to address it. As a result, much of why you do things is based on what you think is the right thing, and you have a tendency toward people pleasing, but moving out of the family home at 17 and holding down three jobs to survive, taught you to be resilient and self-sufficient.
The voids created by a lack of academic skills, emotional support and parenting are filled with an extroverted effort with people, constant chatter, being fun and always making others feel better about themselves, or at least trying to. You really put in the work to develop and maintain relationships formed during this time, but the majority are quite one sided. You realize this later on in life, and let go of some of those relationships, but not enough.
School was a struggle with ADHD, but you don't get that diagnosed until your late 30s, and you had severe dyslexia, that made everything much more difficult. But you're always up for a challenge, and these challenges taught you to find alternative routes, often through being more creative, practical and personable.
When it comes to decide whether to go to university or not, you let self-doubt get the better of you and you choose not to go. This fear of traditional learning still haunts you, but don't worry, it will be okay.
But know this Max nothing will ever be given to you. Be more confident in your own abilities and your unique attributes and being more comfortable in your own skin. When you have those bi-monthly freak-outs about how well you're doing or not doing, doubting your potential and thinking you're not doing well enough, know that you are more than enough. But don't let that dampen the fire.
Sports is something that you're really good at and deeply connect with. You become a personal trainer and sports rehab specialist, and this leads to the realization that you're actually pretty good with people and really enjoy it.
Introducing yourself to strangers on the gym for months ultimately helps you hone your ability to serve and sell, but you want more and pursue bigger opportunities in London, moving into a fitness equipment and sales. Don't doubt this move for a second.
The phrase out of sight, out of mind, has never been true with some of your supposed friendships here. But on a positive note, one of your teammates introduces you to a senior sales role within exhibitions business at the same time. Through drive, determination, persistence and scarcity for failure, you land companies like Ericsson helping you become head of sales. And given the size of the business, you also have to step in at times and effectively do every role within the company at some point. All of this will serve you very well.
You decide to take a leap into larger London agencies. You research the top 10 agencies and write a letter to each of the CEOs. From those 10 letters, you get six meetings, four job offers, and securing the one you really wanted.
This next 10 years is all about honing your craft. You dedicate yourself to the cause, attending every social event, connecting with every person you can and being in the mix when opportunities open up, ready to capitalize on them and say, yes. There's no quick fix here, no alternative to putting in the reps, whether it's pitching, introducing yourself on the phone or public speaking.
There are countless sayings like, “learn in your 20s, earn in your 30s, and take note.” This is very true, but the key lesson is this, “you must get comfortable with being uncomfortable to grow and truly put yourself in the game. You also never actually fail. You only learn.” You're an ideas person, and you're really bloody good at it. You see gaps and opportunities and create solutions, but these can often distract you from the bigger picture. Just be aware of how your brain works like this.
Previously, what was most important to you was money. Now it's choice and balance. You now have the freedom to make your own choices, explore business opportunities, including making time to spend with your wife. Someone said, Yes, you lucky man. Play sports, support social causes, including mental health and this becomes very close to you for two reasons. And spend as much time as you can with your kids. You have two of them, whilst nuts, they're also bloody brilliant.
Throughout your life, there will be people who make an impact on you. Look out for these mentors and role models. They're really important to your personal development. Right now, there are two men and two women in particular who act as your hype people, soundboards and anchors. And in a few years, you set up a mentoring program called Elevate to make it even easier for others to find the same people like this.
So, young Max, always remember, no one has their shit entirely together, no matter what they say or how things may appear, so do not worry about them. You do you my friend.
And lastly, and most importantly, Richard Branson says, “the brave may not live forever, but the cautious will never live at all.” You have to keep putting yourself into those slightly stressful scenarios. Being brave and your personal growth will be unrivaled. As you get older and experience more in life, you'll realize this. Yes, that makes total sense.
Well done, mate. Keep at it. I know what you're capable of and Granny Annie would be very proud.
From Max in 2025 and my one piece of advice is this, “the brave may not live forever, but the cautious will never live at all.”
Mel: So, welcome to our sofa, Max.
Max: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure being here.
Mel: I know I am in full control today.
Max: That's probably the weird effect, isn't it? I have nothing. I'm ready.
Mel: Great, let's do this then. So, for those that don't know you as well as I do, tell us about yourself.
Max: My name is Max Fellows. I am fortunate to be the co-founder of Elevate, a leading mentoring program, supporting talent and helping nurture and develop relationships throughout our industry globally. I also am the proud founder of All Points, which is a leading growth advisory in M&A consultancy. So we support and work with businesses within the events and creative sphere, if you like, from or supporting across every facet of growth if you like.
So that could be headhunting, training, development, operations, all the way through then to an eventual exit sale, financing, EOTs, MBOs, you name it. So there's a raft of things in there, but simplified. It's helping business owners and leaders realize their full potential through various kind of verticals within the business needs and metrics.
Mel: What do you do for fun?
Max: I have just started getting back into tennis, and I am all right at that, but it's an interesting mental game there. During COVID and actually I had a good COVID, which is a negative thing to say, I realized that there are a few things that I need in order to regulate myself, and I call those my non negotiables, and of that, two times a week is to at least exercise, if not three. And another couple of those are things like socializing. And I mean, as a true extrovert, I get a lot of energy and enjoyment from speaking with other people, new people, people I know, things like that. And, so I have to speak with people in a social dynamic at least twice a week. That for me, is great fun. And then, once a week, once every couple of weeks, have a few beers and just sport or chat with mates and things like that. I'm a fairly simple soul in that respect.
Mel: I think anyone that knows you will understand you're such a people person, so it's no surprise that you needing to be around people gives you energy. So, I am so excited about this conversation, because what I'm hoping to do is help people see the Max Fellows as that I do and Pete does, and understand what drives you and who you are behind. I guess, the persona you might see on LinkedIn or the person that you see on LinkedIn, and really get to know you. So, I am very excited.
Max: I feel mischievous. I don't know why I can't be.
Mel: I can see, there's a mischievous grin. So, anything could happen.
Max: Yeah.
Mel: So, I really want to go back and start at the start, and the first thing I want to know is what writing the letter was like for you, because I'm going to guess that you were expecting it to be somewhat therapeutic, because we've had plenty of people tell us that, but tell us or tell me what surprised you about writing the letter and what stood out for you?
Max: Yeah, I have in more recent years done quite a bit of self-reflection, both through counselors and therapy and things like that. As well as the work that I do is requires you to pull on a lot of personal experience and broader experience and things. So, from that perspective, I found it actually quite enjoyable. I very rarely look in the rear view mirror.
By that to some degree and probably so toxic trait, self-pride myself on moving forward at pace, looking forward, I feel and fear sometimes, if I do sit in the past too much, I start taking things for granted. I get too relaxed. I bathe about in some minor successes and things, and I'm incredibly hard on myself, and that is something that this letter forced me to kind of just face up to a little bit.
And if someone's asking you try and highlight some of your achievements, you have to go searching for them, and you have to look at what you might deem a success or otherwise.
So, I think it definitely is a form of therapy, for sure. It's also then deciding what you're okay with people seeing. But what most people that know me, or hopefully everyone that knows me, is that whilst I love a good gossip and absolutely, the chat. I'm also open. If you ask me the questions, I'll tell you the answers. I'm so used to asking the questions, it's very rarely that I get asked the questions back. Sounds sad, but it's just how I am and how it is.
Mel: Where does that fear of looking back come from?
Max: It comes back from looking all the way back, probably to my childhood, and without having to pay you money, and this become those types of sessions. I came from a family and I was the fat, stinky kid. So, we had second, third hand clothes, hand me downs, things like that. There was a divorce earlier on, and so my mum took the brunt of it. I was one of six kids, and we very much had to kind of look after each other to some degree. I wouldn't see her for two or three days at a time. And my youngest brother at the time was seven and I was 10. No, I wasn't lying. I was 11.
The roles that we developed there as kids, and I was the defender. So, I would defend my younger siblings. As soon as you got to old enough, 16, 17, you left, you got out, and whether it was moved in with friends, or uni, whatever it is and things like that.
For me, I think that a lot of that time was defending so as a lot of frustration, a lot of turmoil and all the rest of it, social services were involved. And the aim was, is that you got through it to a point where you got out of it. So for me, looking back stems from earlier on to that point and what I promised myself at the age of, I think it was probably about 14, 13, maybe was that you can only go further forward from this. You can never go back to that. You can never look back or dwell in that or sit with it or otherwise. You just have to improve and do better.
This doing better is like this curse that I've been given, or I've created for myself. It's weird talking about this. I've not done this before so, and it's something that I used to drive me, but also something that sometimes defines me and/or hampers me a little bit. So that's where it comes from, I think, is just moving forward as quickly and as hard as you can creating a life that that will never resemble one that you came from a bit.
Mel: We'll talk about that a little bit in a minute. So do you put things in place now to allow you to slow down and take a minute and to maybe celebrate the successes, or take a moment to kind of go, that was a good job.
Max: COVID again was a really good thing. Peter will know this, because he's the one I turned to. Actually, I had a mental breakdown prior due to the loss of a friend and things that forced me to address, speaking to people and forced me to address certain kind of characteristics and toxic kind of traits of the way I thought about things, but then COVID forced you to slow down. And I think actually that was a really scary time for a lot, especially our industry, but that was a really healthy thing for me to have to do.
Now, I use the excuse, but it's not an excuse, it's a reason. My kids to slow down a bit and I will ensure that I'm there at least doing two or three pickups and or bedtimes a week. And equally, I have a rule of thumb now where, if the weather is good between the months of May and September, on a Friday, you have to try and entwine business with having fun. So call it Funday Fridays.
So last week, I had a client, and we went and just played tennis at nine o'clock in the morning, had a meeting, playing tennis, cup of tea afterwards, and we got shit loads done. It was really fun. I smashed him, and it was even better because of it. So that that feels like you're on holiday, but you're still working. And as a business owner, the flexibility that I have granted myself to work like that has been great, and the way that I work is very weird and different and strange but we can talk about that as well.
Mel: We'll definitely talk about that. There's a few things I want to pick up on. What you said there, and for people that don't know you that well, probably won't know this, but you referenced there the situation with your friends and your adoption of therapy, and you are somebody that now really believes in therapy, that's become quite a big feature in your just day to day regular cadence of life.
Max: Yeah, definitely. I think it should be an enforced practice within the workplace. I don't mean workplace stress, but I just mean. I don't think there's any person on this planet that has the natural ability to truly understand how they're thinking or what things have happened in the past and how that's affecting them in some way, shape or form. They doesn't have to be that they're, you know, to the edge of suicide type of thing, but even just in the way that you handle pressure, or even in the way that you handle authority or criticism or procrastinate, any of these kind of things, I think can manifest in different ways.
I think especially as men, and especially actually in their 20s, 30s and 40s, we're really shit at talking, really shit. And anyone that dare speaks to me and kind of open up a bit, I'm going to find out what's going on with them, you know, because I think not enough people do, and if they ask, I'll tell them back as well. And I think it's so important.
With all the additional economic and kind of global and home and British and all the rest of the challenges happening, it can feel quite heavy. Things weigh sometimes heavier than they are. And I think speaking to people is a way of lightening it, or having a different opinion on something sometimes, you know, sharing a challenge will lighten the challenge, right? That's the kind of thing, really.
But I've seen it at its worst, and I've seen what it can do in suicide and things like that. And I think that there's such a huge spectrum, but no one is up at the top end of brilliance, no matter how good you think you are. Everyone has a story, and everyone has stuff going on.
Mel: And let's thank you for sharing that and I think that will help a lot of people, because, to your point. And I think as a society, we are getting better, but that need to talk and that needs to open up, not just when the big stuff happened, but as a matter of course, to just work through things and to make it more normal. So thank you for sharing. And I see that in you, actually, in the way that on the podcast or in Elevate or in some of the conversations. And I think it's a great trait to have to really care enough to make sure people are really okay.
Max: I don't think the average Joe appreciates at these different levels and different areas, and I have an incredible group of both on the global events side, but also from the CEO agency side. And global events is 85% female, and the agency side is probably 90% male. These are CEOs and MDs of global businesses. These are 100 million plus turnover businesses. They are seeking out a conversation to have a chat, because they don't know or haven't explored and there's a weight with families when have kids and all the rest of it, the pressure on the earner and stuff like that. It just shows up in different ways.
I think it's just really important that sounding cliché, you know, that we look out for each other and actively listen. I'm the best and worst active listener. I've got something on my mind. I'm going to try and interject whilst you're talking, to say just to get it off my mind otherwise I'll forget. But I'm pretty good at the rest of the time.
Mel: So, let's go to the letter. You referenced there a little bit your childhood and some of the things that went on and you experienced more under the age of 17 than most people do in a lifetime, with some of the challenges going on, not just at home, but for you, with your health and other things. What was that? What were those early years like, and how do you think that has shaped you as you've come into your adult life and your professional life?
Max: It was tough, and being bullied and then having a brain tumor and having a year off.
Mel: How old were you when that happened?
Max: The brain tumor was 13, just 13. When they told me, you're going to have to take a year off and repeat a year.
Mel: That was the last bit.
Max: I almost told the head teacher to do one on the basis of there's nothing worse than having to socialize with a year underneath you at school. No way. I was quite severely dyslexic, and equally with kind of later diagnosed ADHD and things. And so I just found school really hard earlier on.
Then, after the tumor, I dropped loads of weight. I dropped four and a half stone through the tumor. So, every silver cloud has a lining, what have you. And my rugby picked up and I found sport then, and that really helped.
So, it got me a group of friends and I kind of adopted this, not fake persona but just kind of started showing up in a slightly different way. It started working better. I'm not going to ask schools really hard, but the latter stages, I enjoyed it more so because it was more about the socializing. And actually I started finding new ways of learning through being mates with the teachers and so on. So I think that side of things was all right.
Home life was bad shit, and it just, the moment I could and the family's taken care of. So, my brother ended up having being removed, and we got into my dad left. And so, it was around 15, 16, that then kind of moved out and into a flat, which my mum did support on the purchase of and things, but that was kind of the necessity of and then, my sister moved in. She was about 14, 15, later on, and we lived there, which was 16, 17, with your own flat. From the age of probably 9 or 10, been doing our own washing and cooking and things like that. My sister did way more than cooking and washing. I cannot take credit for it.
Mel: But that's a huge amount for a young person to contend with, looking after siblings, going through what must have been a really terrifying time, actually, with a brain tumor and the operation and time out, not just dealing with the younger kids. So then move out on your own at 16, 17, and suddenly be responsible for yourself and the bills and the washing and the ironing and all the things that come with it.
Max: It didn't ever feel like that. So the brain tumor at the age of 13, I'm really glad if it was going to happen, it happened then. It's like an adventure. You just don't know the potential risks or the other side of it. So it's the size of a golf ball. And the episode of how I found out is a separate one in itself, but it was slightly hilarious, and also bananas.
You just don't know any better. The challenge for me was just the loneliness of… I had people come visit, but I was on my own quite a bit in hospital, and that was a bit that really struck me to the point where I don't ever want to be in hospital again and try to be fit. But also, as a bloke, you just don't go then to hospital as much you know. Don't go to checkups and things and my wife will kicks you up the ass all the time. I'm not very good at it.
So you just don't know any different. And I think that that's your norm. And I think for every kind of individual or family, that's their norms, and to some degree, and that was it. And then when you're out, and I've always had a good work ethic and spoke way too much kind of weaving, I was a teenager and things like that, but I was a very motivated individual even through that period, in terms of, I had my first job when I was 12, babysitting. I babysat on my own at 12, four kids under the age of five, first six even. But that was it, that you earn your own money. And I've done so many random jobs, so many from driving a ferry to running a paintball site, so many random jobs, but, yeah.
Mel: So, tell us you left home at 17, and you talk, obviously, I know you well, so we talk about this and joke. But you're moving to the fitness world. And the jobs that you held down, I think it was three or four jobs that you held down at that time.
Max: Yeah, it was three, four. So with schooling, it was very much a case of you are never going to be an academic, and therefore don't bother. And so, it was very much fun what you can do. I was very good at every kind of vocation in there, that was more creative. So I'm very good with a sewing machine.
I was good with art and drama, and with resistant materials and sports and things. Just basically go anything with hands, hand eye coordination and/or creativity and that's the way I kind of was shoved and so went into, then the fitness world, if you like, of trading up and becoming kind of fitness was playing quite a good standard of rugby as well, which I've really enjoyed, really enjoyed. So that's kind of the avenue it was chosen for me to some degree, or you're looking at the next goch one, so I don't know it could have gone either way, really.
Mel: But that early experience on the gym floor was pretty seminal, I think, from what we've talked about in terms of learning, how to greet people, how to serve to people, how to build connections. What was it like being on that gym floor and again, I guess, learning your craft to some degree.
Max: My dad, I was probably about eight, we went to McDonald's, and my burger was nuked, so he made me go up and speak to the manager on my own, and he wouldn't let me leave without having done it. And then it happened, and he made me do it again. I remember this specifically, because it was just this something I'm stealing in Felix the moment. If we're out, he orders directly, looks eye contact, and it forced me to do that.
Through all of his negative traits of things, that was something he really instilled and he had the gift of the gab. He was a good talker, so really kind of started seeing him and how he did that, and because of the nature of what I did, I had to befriend people quickly in order to learn how I can support them through that, or what can use them for. I know that sounds really negative, but at the time is that you need to qualify people fairly quickly.
So the gym floor, to me, was a case of, I'm not selling, I'm here to help you. And I generally was that, and it is with all of the things that I do. But through that interpersonal relationship, I was able to find out very quickly what they needed or otherwise, and align my services or someone else's to do so and get a beer for the referral type thing. And yeah, I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it.
At one point, I was running a circuits class of about 160 people here. I had my three little ladies that followed me around doing my body pump and stuff, short Shure Madonna mic, it was, yeah, embarrassing, but…
Mel: You took a very personal approach to welcoming everybody and making sure…
Max: Yeah, because there's no one, unless you are very well tracked, you know, that walks into a gym going, Oh yeah, feel great about this. Probably 80% of people are nervous, the outside of five times a week and things. You identify that quite quickly. So all the kind of cues, you start picking up, the body signals we were talking about kind of psychology and all the rest of it, I absolutely love it. I find it fascinating.
But I can read people very quickly, and I can get the cues quite quickly. And that was a lot of that was home. Then when you have got 400 or 500 people that you're kind of speaking to on a monthly basis and things and trying to help speak to make small talk. You also had to take a counseling qualification through it, and I'm glad I did, because what you get told personal training is insane.
Mel: Wow. That's a whole different podcast.
Max: No fair is enough rife.
Mel: And then, you went from that on a recommendation from a friend who put you forward for a role that took you into the events industry?
Max: Kind of. So whilst I was at college, I was given the kind of segue, if you like to go to university or don't and get working. And it was a conversation I had that one of the lectures just said, you'll have the time of your life, but you might struggle with some of the kind of the learning side of things. And that really scared the shit at me.
I hadn't read a book until I was about 24’ish, something like that. I'd managed to get around it my ways, type of thing. So, the thought of that structured learning was terrifying, and so I didn't. And then, on the last day of college, at the Sports Awards, there's a chap called John Harris.
He's a disability athlete, so he's got GB medals, still world records and things like that. And he's a Welsh bloke, and he's 86 and he's still going strong. He's pushed around Wales. He was the first disabled person to climb Kilimanjaro in a wheelchair, and you know what? He's just like that. He said keep in touch. And because I didn't know where I was going, I just knew what I did. That was the kind of the perseverance and persistence piece.
So I called him up every Friday, last Friday of every month, and said, How's it going? He would kind of give me a pep talk, and I believe in you, and a bit of a kind of a surrogate father figure to some degree or just a cheerleader. I did that for nearly a year and a half, every Friday called him, and at that end of that point, I've been gym instructing for about two years at this point, and personal training and stuff.
He just said look, I'm happy we have these chats. I really enjoy them. I'm getting lots of them too, but I feel like you, I need to hook you up somehow. So he introduced me to the Sales Director at fitness company called Star Trac fitness, who then said, Fine, if you're that keen, I'll give you an interview. I had seven interviews and got the job, and then that was up in High Wycombe way, towards that way.
So the way that I looked at it is personal training. You could do eight hours a day at 50 quid an hour. You could do that five days a week, and your max salary is going to be between, I don't actually say 50 grand, 60 grand, or something like that. I'm like, fine for the first few years. I had a really clear sense of what targets I wanted to hit financially, even though they were really out of context.
I was like, I want to be able to do better than that, maybe not immediately, but I want to do better than that. So I took this job and moved on my own at 23 I think it was, up to high weekend, I lived at Berkhamsted, but almost moved to Watford, but just did that, rented a room with a lovely guy called Stephen, and that was it. And just did it and moved, why not?
Mel: And then from fitness sales to Ericsson.
Max: Yeah. Well, so whilst there I was doing well and honed more commercial sales, had some basic sales training, but just honed what I did in creating these relationships with people, and what I was able to quite quickly, is you could be the CEO of Fitness First. I've got you type of thing. I know who you are. I know what you're about. I can connect on your level. And someone once a commercial comedian, and it makes me sound a bit slippery, but the ability to adapt into someone else's to make them feel good about themselves, but also kind of align, and so did and sold well for three years, outsold him and them, and he didn't like it.
So one day called me out and said, Look, I think it's time for you to move on. I thought, Oh, cheers that mate and used a 10-pound discrepancy on my petrol expenses to then call the police. So I gave him 20 and told him where to shove it. Then that day at the Rugby Club, one of the lads was just leaving an exhibitions company in the sales role, and I was having a chat about what's going on. I said, Look, well, if you can sell, these guys are in in the market. You want to go in. The next week, I had an interview, and by the following Friday, I had the job. So, that was it. And all of a sudden, I'm in exhibitions and events. Never heard of the industry, never knew what it was about and all of a sudden I was like, wow, this is insane.
Mel: I was going to say, had you come across the industry before knew anyone in it?
Max: I had done a couple of trade shows, but in a fitness capacity, either in sales and or demo in kit and things like that.That was like FIBO, and that was in Germany or what have you but it's slightly different when you're on stand.Mel: You've actually just posted recently on LinkedIn about this, but we've had a conversation about this quite often around these three stages of a career, and three life cycles, if you like. So, you've gone from fitness and personal training into the events industry, what was that like in those early days in that role and your learning curve, if you like, going from one industry to another?
Max: I think that whole kind of transferable skills things is right. When I talk about this three kind of parts of people's career, I'm trying to highlight the fact that no career, and no matter what you're told at school is a line ever. I think that being ready and putting yourselves into position where opportunities might arise, but grabbing hold of them will see you.You will train in because I think I'm going over myself, sorry. But at an earlier stage, you're given a category of 15 careers or what have you, and at the next stage, you've got 30 career choices. You go in it, and you've got 1300 career choices.
And you think about the events, industry, creative sales, account management, or such and such as what I understood it to be at the beginning. Give it a year and you've got probably 1500 different career choices you can have. How can you from an early stage know that that's what you might want to do? So, I think, as you like in relationships, you mature, you change and things like that. So, my progression from kind of fitness into events, actually was ideal. Those interpersonal skills really worked well, and I was able to kind of progress quite quickly, and I really enjoyed it.
I think that has moved me then into the second part of my events career, which is there's much more consultative advisory,which I never thought or felt qualified for, but I'm now realizing that actually, and did when I set this up, that there is a monetary value to the experience that I have. But I don't think anyone believes that. You almost start consulting See,could I do it? Let's see what rates you can charge and things. It's when people start asking you and being quite frank, is what you know, and your cross kind of layering of experience and your viewpoint on things has intrinsic value. And you're like, wow.
I don't think in companies people realize this, either in creative companies, in brands and stuff like that, but it's this kind of unique layering of your experience is what makes you valuable and what makes you good at what you do and like no one else, it's kind of like your fingerprint. I think the more people understand that and lean into that. I think the more that they will give themselves an easier time, but also will see their career progress and be more confident in showing up and kind of highlighting what those kind of fingerprints look like.
Mel: So let's talk about that agency period because you obviously went into the exhibition business, you…
Max: Which is where we met as well.
Mel: We did in the hallowed halls of Congress. You worked across six different agencies and built a really interesting,varied career, but you also had a very interesting way into your first job, is actually quite similar to some of the other guests we've had on the podcast already, which is taking a very personal approach to getting the job and getting an opportunity to enter into your first sort of big agency. If you would like to tell us that process around growing and learning in the exhibition industry, and that point at which you made the decision, right? I need the next step. And then what you did, because it's fascinating.
Max: I was a really early adopter of LinkedIn, and loved it, and I did some real damage with it. I mean that in the best way possible is that I loved it. And like we met, I would go to the Fera, and I would walk 14 halls, and I would speak to 70% of brand owners or otherwise cold off the bat and things. And that creates this kind of resilience, if you like.
When it came time that I was really keen to expand out of, say, the exhibitions, because, again, it's quite linear when people stay in that vertical, whereas I think, Gosh, it's so exciting to think about campaigns, and even to the extent of out home through the line and content and so on. And a friend of mine, Abby Newell, who was at Sony at the time, actually,we're talking about this and as I was explaining what I was doing, and she just said, look, what is your unique film? What are you really good at? And I was like, people, blah, blah, blah, it's like, so use that.
And so we came up this way where, because the LinkedIn connections or otherwise, I effectively found the CEOs of the businesses that I liked, did some researching and wrote them all a letter and directly to them and structured it in a way that I was like, This is me. This is what I do. So what I love doing. This is what I think I could probably do for you. Would you give me a chance to show you? And I sent it to 10 CEOs. I got a response back from eight. I got six interviews and job offers from four, and then took them of those 10, Anton Jerges was one of them. So it's quite a full circle moment.
Mel: Really is. So I think it's five other agencies you then went on to work for from that initial one, what was it like, and what did you learn across those six? Because from starting on a gym floor and learning that skill about how to sell and talking to people, to where you were at the end, at Clive, that's quite a trajectory and quite a journey through. So what I guess I'm asking is, what were your biggest lessons and learnings in that period?
Max: There was another two from Clive, actually. I think one of the things that I was and do have an incredible work ethic, and when I then left businesses, I upset owners, because I worked hard, really hard, and I would be the face of the business, and I would go to the nth degree of whatever needed to do that job and all the rest of it.
For me, one of the things that kind of I learned is, well, it's not so much learning, but the value in that work ethic culture is something that's through the agency world and experience what I love it. Absolutely love it. And so I took this culture role, and that stayed with me, then through the businesses in terms of culture lead and commercial lead and stuff like this.And I would say that, I won't say who, but actually there is certain businesses where it wasn't the best in terms of management otherwise, I learned more from those businesses than I did actually, from some of the better ones about how not to do three things, treat people.
So the commerciality of it got bigger and bigger. My Network got bigger and bigger, and my ability to talk to seniority or people of seniority got bigger and bigger. I suppose my imposter syndrome piece, which I still have, diminished a little bit more, and the confidence rose a bit around how to handle myself, people, pitches and things like that. And just started really enjoying putting myself into positions where it was uncomfortable, and public speaking and things like that as well,which I'm super grateful for the opportunities.
Our industry has so many opportunities. People just have to get themselves stuck in, ask, put themselves into contention,and you can just grow in so many different ways. I find it amazing.
Mel: It's so true. And you are definitely somebody that grabbed every opportunity and put yourself out there and made sure that you were progressing. You took real ownership of your own development.
Max: Yeah. It's just around that time, actually, that Elevate came about because of the development piece in our conversation. I think that I hunted people down that I liked the look of, and I said, it sounds weird, but there'll be people who are performing well, great personal brand or otherwise, and I'm going for them, and I would sit them down, buy them lunch, and just make it very clear that I would like to know everything about them, how they do it, and all the rest of it, in order to then be better and they were quite happy with that. I just did that on repeat, and just kept on doing that.
They then have become mates or people like that. So, it's quite forthcoming with it. But I know a lot of people don't have that in them and things. So, hence we're kind of creating Elevate but also, I think the fact that we as an industry are pretty poor, as businesses and business owners about taking responsibility for developing talent. It's something that you put on the shelf and leave there for people to go and take, but it's not culturally kind of done.
So this massive chasm, as you and I both know you the Canyon has opened wider and wider, so people's confidence are less and capabilities and skill sets and things are hemorrhaging and harmed, I think, as a result.
Mel: Absolutely and hence, why Elevate is Elevate.
Max: Exactly that.
Mel: So you obviously made yet another shift to go from what was a very successful agency career. You're a very successful commercial director in great agencies, and you made a decision around the time of COVID to pivot and do something completely different, but to take your career in a slightly different way and is Allpoints, but also several other businesses that you created at the same time.
What was it about that agency experience and what you had learned at that point that you went? You know what I think,I'm at a point now where I'm going to give this consultancy go a try, because as you reference, it's quite a step out, and there's a lot of considerations about whether what I have is valuable, and what can I charge. So what was the catalyst that made you go? I think this is it. What went on for you personally, whether it's your own discussions in your head or your own development that got you to a stage where you thought, right, I'm ready for this step.
Max: I don't think anyone is ever ready. And there is no right time or should I say, there's no point where, if you feel ready for it and now's the right time, you've missed the boat. I think that you should be pushing yourself out there. We both have that belief in the area of uncomfortable kind of feelings is where you grow, and that's where the opportunities strike hardest, and that, I really do believe in it.
So, at that point, I'd helped scale and sell a couple of agency businesses and things like that. I'd been exposed to quite a bit across that perspective, much like yourself, is that I've done every role that exhibition agency.
At the beginning, there was three of us in there, and we were winning Estee Ericsson and things like that. They had no idea how big they were, but we were doing 3 or 4 million quids worth of revenue, which I was winning. And there's three of us in the office. They had no idea. I remember, just a side note. Is when we had our pictures done for the office. We pulled in six suppliers, a wife, a friend and someone randomly who was outside parking their car because we had an empty seat and had pictures done in the office. So no one ever has their... It's never what it seems kind of thing.
So when COVID came around, I was given because of furlough and mean, the kind of the business I was with had an agreement there of you know what? I didn't agree with the way that things would be, but I just think that it was the right time to part ways, basically. I did so, and had a window of opportunity. We just moved house and loved nothing more than manual labor to some degree, using so did lots of carpentry, things like that. And it's great time to think. But in doing so,we got stuck in with Elevate, supporting community more.
And what became or what started happening, was that I was just getting calls from business owners who I knew, and lots of just generally through kind of building the network about what was going on. And because of the vantage point that I have and had through building the network or otherwise, I actually knew what the majority of agency owners were thinking or trying to do or otherwise, and was able to replay that to some degree, in a way that felt consulted to them or helpful. Someone asked if they could pay me to come on as a non-exec to be able to help them and they're going right.You're in you're in your early 30s. You're thinking non exec director or mid 30s, probably being a Bitcoin there.
Mel: You're still younger than myself Max.
Max: Okay, well, I'm still younger than you anyway. I think that's the first moment you like Mel. Well, if they need it,then potentially others do. And so it started off as MFCs, Max Fellows Consultancy, and then it kind of evolved, and all of a sudden realized that actually, I have probably three, I'm not an expert.
I know a lot about two or three key verticals, and I know a lot, but to a lesser extent about the wider remit. And I could talk, to an extent, about everything, but where people had the needs beyond my capabilities. Rather than just saying I can't, I would say I know someone else who can, and this is where the network just perfectly aligned, and I was able to pull people in.
Then grew to realize, well, okay, but if I'm doing that, getting the business, then they're not going to almost monetize that as well. But in terms of how that's being delivered, I want to deliver it to a higher level or I want some more structure. So just started building this framework and stuff and Allpoints grew off the back of that. And that was three years ago, three and a bit years ago and this second iteration of the events career, if you like, is this one where I just would never have thought it's possible or that I would have ever been qualified.
But here we are, and I'm working with, and have a group now, WhatsApp with nearly 100 of the top global CEOs of agencies who I call someone mates and things like this, who are asking my advice and things. It's just amazing how over time, and I do proactively work really hard to understand what's going on, and consistently, kind of hone my skills and the teams and I work with some of the best consultants and best people on the planet, bar none, and I'm also the first admit that they are way better than me at certain things and let's, let's pull them in.
So, it's just this really interesting dynamic where it's kind of overlaid and clicked to an extent here and now, shifting and evolving the shape of the business into kind of develop some other strands. It's so exciting and loving it. I think it's such an exciting thing to be able to forge your own path and to be responsible for. It's also terrifying to some degree.
But I've never, ever worried about not making money. And I know that's ridiculous, but just because I've looked forward,I've never looked back, dangerous sometimes, but it's always that I'm very good at seeing opportunities, exceptional at seeing good opportunities. I think that's the ADHD asked me to sit in that role, then on that single one for three or four years. And I'm not your guy. That's where you need an MD to come in and all the rest of it. I'm phenomenally good at seeing opportunities, connecting people like a big jigsaw, starting things quickly, moving at pace, but then I kind of move.
Mel: I've got two questions connected to everything you've just said. But let's pick up on the ADHD point first, because one of the things that comes through in the letter is the way that you have used ADHD as a superpower, and what it's enabled you to do. And Peter and I obviously see it a lot through Elevate. You are the most… in a good way, but you're the one that's most likely to have a crazy idea and message at on the WhatsApp group, which is always live, but particularly buzzing around 10 pm and 6am from Max Fellows because your brain just works in a certain way. But so it's really interesting that you've looked at it as a superpower, but it's also fueled and enabled your businesses to be a certain way. So, I'd love to explore that.
Max: Yeah, it doesn't feel like a superpower all the time. And same thing as dyslexia, it's been a pain in the ass and a real challenge for 90% of my educational, say, career. But you know what I mean in terms of learning journey, and it's what has enabled me to operate in higher capacities in certain circumstances. You know the positives are these sprints and ideas and things like that, my mind goes really quickly in a very intense short period of time.
But the circumstances to do deep work have to be almost perfect. Otherwise, it is like trying to walk through quicksand or run through quicksand. You just do it as a plod and a walk and things. That's how it feels when you're trying to hit a task when you're not in flow, if you like.
So, it feels exceptionally frustrating at times, and my workflow at 9:30 sometimes, is 8, and I click, and that's it, and I'm on till one o'clock in the morning. It's not healthy, and it's not great, but it also means that I could sit here having a conversation and my mind is already thinking about something else off the back of something I said two minutes ago, and I've got thought about something I need to do about it, but I'll come off the back of this, go straight write it down, or action it straight away.
That's where you guys get WhatsApps and things. And it is a flurry of excited, oh my gosh. Like, go with me on this.Have we thought about this? We could do this. It could work like this. Here's the commercial plan behind it. Let's do this.Let's do this. Who's going to do it? We'll figure that out, but let's just think about this now.
So it works, but it just means that I can see things in the mergers and acquisitions world. I used to perceive it as something that sat in the city with suit and ties and suitcase wangers and that was them. Holy shit.
Actually, probably 70% of that upfront is about relationships, knowing people when they're in the right position, the chemistry and the fit of the businesses, the commercial alignment, the geographical, the financial and things like that. I see numbers differently as well.
So for me, it's like chess and a puzzle combined, where I'm seeing big things move together, and I have a business here,and I'm just trying to find the right piece to fit into it. But I see it as a jigsaw, and it's bizarre.
There is obviously a lot of due diligence and more legal and everything else that comes into play about finessing and finalizing and the deal making as an art in itself, but I can see that from the viewpoint that I have a feel like I'm kind of on a bit of a hill to some degree, and I can see things, and that's how it's helped. So, I can move really quite effectively with that. It's the same way I connect people. So when I hit a flow, when we're doing our pairings, what you know, I can really move. A Max Fellows is a dangerous thing to get, in a way.
Mel: It's a remarkable thing.
Max: Yeah, exactly. But when I'm not and you're trying to get me to do something, I'm somewhere else. But that's where,like walking as an alternative is something of and it was actually Ben Legg, who used to be the COO from Google, an ex-military man and he will only take meetings walking unless you're presenting something.
He has a recording device to record your conversation. He has a 20 minute loop, a 40 minute loop and an hour loop around Battersea. And when I meet up with him, you are walking, and you're walking at his pace. But it got me thinking about it actually now, if we're having a call and I push people towards a mobile phone, if we can, I'm walking and so good for me.
And I've just, and it's only now, you know, in my late 30s, that I've found that out. And it's just so weird how testing things and learning you find things out about how you work. It was only two years ago that I realized how I could work more effectively in certain times of the day and stuff. And it's just…
Mel: It’s amazing when you unlock those insights. So the thing that was more challenging for you in your younger years and through, as you call it, structured and formal education has actually become something now you've understood it better that you can work.
Max: I think our education system is really bad and I mean that. I think teachers are incredible, just the structure, you know, at what point is it ever going to be natural to sit with 30 strangers for 80% of your life for seven years, looking at a book or a projector on the wall, which was my, the cellophane.
Mel: The cellophane. I remember that.
Max: For me, it didn't. And so I was always deemed to be a disrupter and naughty and that really affected me a bit. So now actually seeing how that learning and the way of working, if you lean into it, can actually put you into a position of higher percentile of being good at your job, or actually, that means your business is going to operate in a different way.You see opportunities differently.
It's so exciting. And sometimes I pinch myself, going, how did I get here type of thing, not that I've made it by any means,but the people that involved with and just ideas popping up all the time, and someone called up, someone said, I've got a bad case of popcorn brain. If something heats up and it's just popping off everywhere and it's just holding on to these things and trying to process them properly.
Mel: I love that.
Max: That's it. I've got in in the locker, probably six or seven businesses that have started, and from an intermediary to what was before tough mother came out called sand warrior races. Great. If anyone wants that business. It's their mental health app for children, which supports parents and doing so, called being phenomenal. I've got the biggest directory for event suppliers called globaleventsupply.com, it's just there. These are things that have done at pace, invested in and stuff like that. They all good. They all worked or work, but then it's kind of like, right?
Mel: And then you move onto that.
Max: It's not so much I just put it down. It's more so that, it's either taking the course that it has or then I brought someone else in to support the continuation of that business. But also I wanted to highlight because of that, sometimes it's good just to try things, test things, as long as you fail fast, that's okay, because that failure is a learning. I think we're just so afraid of being seen to get things wrong or being exposed for not being perfect.
I still, like I said, imposter syndrome. I'm still terrified of people seeing me as me, but it's only more so the last few years,and I'm okay with that a bit more, and okay with people seeing me a little bit more, and I've always operated eight years older than myself, and I know you know this as well.
It looks like I've had a hard paper round, because of the insecurities I've always made out and let people believe that I was operating eight years above and always have done in order to speak a certain language and level. I hit my 30s, and I was like, No, I'm cool with this. And all of a sudden people like, oh, so when was your 40th? And I'm like, and I've been fighting the fight ever since now of looking nearly 50, but actually I’m not.
Mel: I'm not 50, and we used to haven't celebrated your 40th, so go away. So there's a couple of questions before we come to the big one, and there's a cheeky, quick fire round I'm throwing in there to the mix. But I can't let this conversation go without talking about relationships, because you are probably one of the best people I've ever seen, not only just from a professional sense, but from a personal sense, in the way that you truly cultivate and look after your friendships and the relationships that you build. And obviously that led you to do a TED talk on this.
But it's a bit of a superpower my words that I would say for you, and the way watching you work and watching you build those relationships, because it comes from a place of real care and real regard, because the relationships you build are not professional relationships. They're really personal, even if they're in a professional setting. We're case in point we met in a professional setting, but talk to us a little bit about your perspective on a network and relationships and what it does for you?
Max: I became very good, very quickly at being able to connect with people and mirror and a bit of self-taught psychology and so on, about understanding how to open people up. And this is going to sound really quite…
I don't know how to explain this, but there's a period of time where I could meet someone and within five minutes qualify them, and I say that, and actually toxically did this in my relationship to qualify whether we would be a long term potential. I could do this in the commercial work. I could meet someone and within three to five minutes consistently be able to find out about them and take them to certain places in conversations, manipulate and lean into certain things, and not in a negative way. So, I want to make that really clear, but because my aim was to speak to as many people as possible to better understand certain things and stuff, and it just created this mechanic where I can do that when I'm on mode, if you like.
Then I just stepped away from such that kind of aggressive under hard sales roles and things and that kind of foundation enabled me to create relationships in a rapid, really quick period of time. If we just met, I can almost decide how much we're going to get on and I can do that. But in order to do that, I have to be that chameleon.
So, I wouldn't always be necessarily true to myself, because I would mirror and I will become who you want, as a friend or as a business partner or otherwise. Over the years, I've then stayed truer to me and gone actually look, if this person isn't for me, that's cool. I'm still going to make sure they have a nice time, they feel connected, and we do get on and whether it's energy or otherwise and things like that. I've become really aware now of who gives me energy back, and so it splits into friendships and kind of commercials and this massive gray area of people in between.
Unfortunately, I've kind of lost a lot of friendships along the way, because I've always been the one that messages, and I'm talking five, six times with one response back, and I would still be the one, because of the way that my brain works. I will see a train go pass, and some way I would think of last month, I was speaking on the phone to someone on the train. I haven't spoken to them a month. I'll drop them a message, and that's what I do all day, every day, and it just doesn't stop. I don't mind that, because it's such a natural thing for me, too. If I think of something or someone, either write it down, or I message them.
Then, if you take that into the commercial world, I think that through the need of the challenge around education, we connecting with people in a different way, and we had a dual kind of purpose serving each other. The value exchange that I talk about in that TED Talk, that really kind of became the currency, really, and the more and more time has gone on, the more and more that has turned into real currency, where I can help people beforehand, it's just knowing them and keeping in touch.
Now, as the network's grown and things, I've been able to really add value, and I don't monetize or take from a lot of them, where it's commercial to do so, and there's an agreement I will. But that's kind of how it forged and happened. And I love seeing people connect, and I love seeing people happy because of something I've done, or people connect, or people working together as a result of it. We love it. It just something that happens quite naturally, but thinking about is something that, you know, I get a lot of fulfillment from.
When you overlay a commercial element of that and you can make money from connections and you can do this, it's kind of one of those things I would never thought I was in this position of having monetized the stuff that I do for fun and or love doing. In an agency that still feels like Disneyland, because it just shouldn't exist. It's just insane. But love it,absolutely love it.
I think that everyone should take a more proactive approach about connecting, caring and trying to help other people in a kind of serving capacity. I think that goes across the board, really, whether it's helping each other with how you show up personal brand, whether it's helping each other connecting with other people work.
I use the example of, someone on your Whatsapp group, on your street, Does anyone know the good trade or good Chinese what have you, you're recommending, and that's still value. It's as little as that to as big as connecting to businesses because you know they'll get on, but you also know the business will fail, and if it works, you get some money off the back of it. It's quite simplistic, but trying to articulate that in a capacity. So people are awesome. So, I just like hanging around with people, working with people.
Mel: So, I'm going to take us into a little quick fire before I ask you the question.
Max: Ready for it.
Mel: So, I've got a few lines up. So, let's go favorite client you've won.
Max: There's two answers to that. There is the one so Ubisoft doing Far Cry five launch. That was probably one of the coolest projects I was involved with. But then the Estee Ericson one being the first Biggie that I then at 2324 delivered a double decker, 3000 square meter stand on my own, having never done an event before in my life, and I had 56 tradies underneath me, or working for me, with me, if you like talking about throwing at the deep end. I had half an hour sleep in the cupboard before them, running the standard day and then doing the party in the evening. That was amazing experience.
Mel: So, tell us about the key mentors and people in your life. And I'm really curious about granny Annie.
Max: I have a really kind of gray area of more recent times, because there's so many people that I connect with, and we kind of help each other and just have lovely conversations that I'll take something from that conversation that's helped or something from that one.
So, John Harris, the individual earlier on, who I spoke to, and throughout my entire life, I would call him, and he's just a cheerleader. I believed in you. Something different about you, I could see it. I know it. You're going to do this, you're going to do and I know that you can what that meant and what that did for me. I had a shit sales call, or a shit week in sales. I call him in the car on the way back in half an hour, and you're choking up, and he just, and he still does it to me now, and it's just like face like a pit bull. That's like the stinging nettle, you know, but he's just hilarious.
Mel: Sure, he'll love that.Max: Oh, he knows that. Yeah, exactly he knows it. And then, yeah, Granny Annie was where my mum was quite absent. My gran stepped in, and me and her were like best mates. And so she did the best that she possibly could. I owe her so much. I owe her everything, really.
So, I think she was one of these that stuck two finger up to hell. She drank a whiskey and water every day, and she would smoke 40 Beaumont, the hard stuff, 40 a day. And so she clocked out at 69, she just wanted to hit 70. So that would have been nice to have seen what we could have done, you know, and make her proud. But I was like, one of those things, you know, What? I think she would, but I think she'd be pissed so far, having fun wherever she is, and stuff. But yeah, so that's granny. She was a huge influence. She enabled me to do a lot earlier on, and supported me out of the six of us. I think she had a soft spot for me, but also because I kind of just, yeah, I really cared about her. So that's granny Annie. Then there's just been loads of people along the way, loads of people.
Mel: Amazing. And Granny Annie definitely would be proud. What would you want Felix and Lily to know? What bit of advice would you give them?
Max: That is a horribly good but brilliant tricky question. I want to instill in them, this kindness and care for other people, politeness and manage is really important. But more so than anything is this self-belief and not arrogance, but this self-belief that they can if they really apply themselves through persistence, curiosity and so on, passion, they could go and achieve pretty much anything, and it's something that I just didn't have anyone doing that for me.
So, for them, I'd like them to know what's possible and how much you can enjoy things, and that I hope they are proud of me when they're a bit older, to know what I've done. But I still don't think I've done that much, and I think it's just this thing where I just think there's so much more to come still. And again, this is rearview thing. I just think constantly like that. It's so…
Mel: So, I’m forcing you to look back before we look forward. What are you most proud of so far?
Max: I think there's three, and I'll be really quick, not being in a crack then somewhere or otherwise, because of the upbringing. So the fact that we made it out, was a big one, leaving Bournemouth, where I'm from, and going it alone at 20, whatever it was, with no friends there, otherwise, just to chase an ambition, not knowing what even that could look like, to just to not go, kind of go back there. And then setting it up alone, and three years in, it proving to be successful, and I can hold up a family and still have the time to do things with kids and enjoy fun day Fridays when it's appropriate to do so, and have these networks and these other kind of projects that we have at Elevate, on top of it and stuff like that, super fortunate.
So, I'm kind of semi-proud, but I've never said I'm kind of proud of myself. You know what this is? Yeah, I'm just not very good.
Mel: I tried to back you into a corner.
Max: Yeah, you can, but that's fine.
Mel: So let's look forward. Then what's next for you?
Max: I think that there is the potential that Allpoints could be massive. So we have the new AI proposition. I've then taken the core business and restructuring it somewhat so we have really clear pillars of service offerings. They themselves are becoming self-sufficient, and really quite so.
The way I look at it, it's like an octopus. It's not very sexy, but not very you know. And these tentacles, again, not very attractive, but these tentacles could have lives of their own and become their own octopuses. I need to be careful as to not spread too thin. But that, for me, is insanely exciting as doing more of it bigger and equally, from a geographic perspective. I also think what we could do with Elevate. I think it is really exciting. And if at some point I do sell off a business or it does, regards, I feel for you and Pete, if I went full time on Elevate, we are all buggered.
Mel: Not at all. I think the industry would be better for it, which leads me nicely to my next question, which is, what are you excited for in the next three to five years of Elevate?
Max: I think the global expansion piece is really exciting. I think what we're going to be doing around content and what we could potentially bring to market using some of the amazing network we have from a learning perspective. I also believe that we talk about awards and things like that, but accreditation and ensuring businesses take responsibility for the development of teams and talent in almost like an ISO type of scenario is a thing that I've seen up there. It's going to take work.
If we could achieve something like that, I think we could completely change the industry, completely change it. So I think there's a whole raft of other things around it, but I think these are big things that I think could happen, but the benefit to our industry could be phenomenal. I think that what a legacy to have that you know.
Mel: Indeed. And last of the quick fires is, what do you see coming for the industry?
Max: I know what's coming for the industry. So that's kind of one of those things. So I am involved with a lot of conversations with private equity, things like this. The experiential side of our industry is soon to be going bananas. There is a lot of money being invested into businesses through M&A roll outs, things like that. So that is going to go bananas, that the corporate B2B side is going to continue to be challenged. There's no budgets going to be popping up any anytime soon.
So, for that reason, I think there's incredible opportunities there. And that's going to see over half of orange, over 50% of agency businesses are owned by those in their late 50s, early 60s. So we talk about the great transition of wealth. You get ready, there's a great transition of business going to be happening. I think it's going to see huge opportunities for those in account director positions or otherwise to step up and take on these businesses, or for roll ups to happen and stuff like this.
I believe that, because of the economic challenges in our industry and globally, what's happening is almost the pre tidal wave of research, where budgets are flowing back to head offices, global group, European wise, which is seeing bigger agency groups get more lion's share of it, which will mean the India agencies are going to niche down again. And it's a very kind of cyclical thing, which happened 20 years ago. We're about to, or going through that now and so this upper kind of end of the independent agencies, or the mid kind of bracket of agencies, are going to be doing some really difficult kind of, going through some difficult times and difficult decisions, which will see further migration of agencies into groups, roll ups and acquisitions and things. So, very nerdy answer to it, but I think…
Mel: It is. But what I love is that you can see how excited you are about the role that you play in the industry and the things that are coming and obviously there are always ebbs and flows and changes you can see.
Max: Exactly. But the positive is there is a lot of money coming into the experiential side of things, which is going to be doing a lot of different things and helping a lot of different… it'll be highlighting and raising lots of different areas that we don't yet see or not really kind of paying attention to yet.
Mel: You heard it here first. So, Max, yeah, we come to the question, and I have this gorgeous photo of you. Where are we?
Max: Our Goss catalog days. That is Brownsea Island, home of the red squirrel. This is, yeah, popped collar, double T-shirt, but it's a fake. It's a one t-shirt, jobby and yeah, this is a cringe picture today.
Mel: It's a brilliant picture.
Max: Yeah, my hands were in my pocket, and I had a leg cocked on the tree as well. So, I was doing a real lean back kind of catalog pose in this one.
Mel: Real catalog pose going on. So, Max, what advice would you give your younger self, the Max there in that faith so that probably had no idea about where you would be today, I’m guessing.
Max: I thought I'd run a gym or create a product that I'd sell fits, that was generally everything that I thought then. So, that's why I think people being open to directional shifts and grabbing it with both hands, important.
My advice would be, and the quote from Richard Branson is “The brave may not live forever, but the courses will never live at all.” And the whole premise around that is, if you do not put yourself into contention, if you wait for the time to be right or feel right, it's too late, and you just have to push yourself. And where that area is the same with public speaking or otherwise, you can do it. It just feels terrifying, but in that experience and space, you'll learn 10 times what you think you do and that is the difference for people, I think, who get more fulfillment from life and more successful in life and things like this, is that you just have to put yourself forward. It's in so many different variables that you can put that as a parallel.
So that, for me is the need, I just want everyone to think, what's the worst that could happen if you're not brave and just put yourself out there, you live a cautious life. You'll live in the same town, doing the same job, in the same place, the same friends, and it's just life is too precious, and we all have so many opportunities and I think that's what that's about really.
Mel: Max it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the sofa, and I'd like to think that people know you that little bit better now as a result of it. So, thank you for being so honest, so just authentically you. It's been great chatting to you.
Max: I've really enjoyed it. Surprise, surprise.
What the industry says about our new podcast…
Our sound and mix engineer is Matteo Magariello and our producer is Peter Kerwood.
About Elevate
Elevate is a pioneering free mentoring programme that has been designed with a specific goal in mind – to inspire, inform and empower people within the event industry.
Elevate operates thanks to the generosity of our Partners; Cvent, Jack Morton Worldwide, Live Union, Powwow Events, Protein STUDIOS (venue partner), PSP, The Production Department and We Are Collider. Our Supporters include; CastleBell Ltd, Trivandi, TRO, Xquisite Productions, SPECIAL SAUCE TRAINING LTD (training partner), Times Ten Coaching, Nic Neal (people and culture partners).
Together, we’re changing lives, careers and the events industry for the better.