Episode 7
Rosie Holden
President of Havas Play UK
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING ’:
From career that almost began as an officer in the Royal Air Force to President of Havas Play UK, Rosie Holden’s journey has been nothing less than spectacular.
Rosie’s passion to ‘do something creative’ has seen her work with enormous global brands including Adidas and Vans to holding senior leadership roles in some of the creative industries biggest agencies.
Rosie’s ethos is to say yes to everything, keep learning every day, stay kind and empathetic, be useful – and most of all, remember that ‘The world is run by people that turn up!
Watch Rosie on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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Dear Rose aged 21 (1995)
I wanted to send you a little note ahead of your first day at your very first job. Here you are, just arrived in London graduating from a three year degree in politics, a summer back home in Huddersfield, and a rather mystifying and obviously unsuccessful attempt at joining the RAF. Clearly distracted by the vision of yourself in an officer’s flying suit, without a thought for the reality of military daily life (ie. being told what to by someone else pretty often and having to do it). You definitely called it right when you called your Mother from the payphone at RAF Cranwell at the end of Officer Selection Day two with the statement ‘Mum, I think I need to go and do something creative, despite the fact you don’t really know what that means yet.
I think the reality was that you just didn’t know exactly what to do after graduation. I know you didn’t even really want to move to London – you only did it because all your mates did. But times are different in the late 90’s. To get a job meant going to London – and ‘being creative’ to you meant going through the ads in MediaGuardian and applying for anything and everything that wanted a candidate with a degree and zero experience. Every Monday post RAF-gate, you fine-toothcombed, and circled those jobs that look interesting to you because they make and do stuff you love. Every film production company, TV station, media agency, music production studios… then popped your CV into an envelope with a begging letter and headed to the post office to get them away, wondering if/ when you’d find a message on your answerphone.
If I could give you any advice now, it would be to believe in that instinct to ‘do something creative’ and make sure it’s always around your passions. It’s going to serve you well. Keep it in your heart and refer to that feeling at any time you’re feeling unsure of yourself or your place in the world. Staying true to what you feel passionate about will give you the most fulfilling, happy life. Music, art, street culture, fashion, film, books, photography, club culture – always work somewhere that allows you to engage with your cultural passion points every day and you will have the career you don’t know you want yet.
So, go enjoy your first day at the music production company, making music, selling tv and film soundtracks and making endless cups of tea for visiting bands and producers. I happen to know that you only last six months, then move to a media agency specialising in music and entertainment clients, where you really start to enjoy yourself and discovering what you really love and what you’re really good at.
You will have some breathtakingly brilliant jobs at sport and fashion brands you’ve always loved, like Vans and Adidas. You will travel the world at your first agency job and turn out to be a people person par excellence. And you will take a couple of wrong turns, when you forget to stay true to your core passions, but that’s ok; those experiences will just remind you how important culture and creativity are to you.
Keep saying yes to everything, keep learning every day, stay kind and empathetic, be useful – and most of all remember something that I heard a few years ago that stays with me. ‘The world is run by people that turn up! Always be one of those!
Rosie x (2023)
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Mel: If I Could Tell You Just One Thing is an event industry podcast presented by me, Mel Noakes.
Max: And me, Max Fellows.
Mel: It's a podcast from Elevate where industry leaders write a letter to their younger selves and consider what wise words of advice they would give themselves now, if only they could.
Max: Our discussion is based on this letter. Be prepared for refreshingly honest conversation and wise words of wisdom.
Mel: So we're delighted to welcome Rosie to the podcast today from a career that almost began as an officer in the Royal Air Force to President of Havas Play. Rosie Holden's journey has been nothing less than spectacular.
Max: Rosie’s passion to do something creative, seen her work with enormous global brands, including Adidas and Vans, to holding senior leadership roles in some of the creative industry's biggest agencies.
Mel: Rosie’s ethos is to say yes to everything, keep learning every day, stay kind and empathetic, be useful. And most of all, remember that the world is run by people that turn up. We're glad she's turned up today.
Mel: Welcome to the sofa.
Rosie: Thank you very much.
Mel: I feel like Holly for reference anymore.
Max: I'm glad you turned up today as well.
Rosie: Oh, no. It wasn't that far to come. I've got to be honest, today. Thank you very much for inviting me, it was quite the interesting exercise that you asked me to do, in fact.
Max: Normally, we asked about this. So carry on then, how was the exercise? And this conversation being based around the letter that you've written to your younger self? You picked the age of 21? How was that experience?
Rosie: Being 21 and writing the letter?
Max: Well, let's go and cover both.
Rosie: Being 21. Not sure I could remember that. There's a lot of fun.
Well, actually, when I first got the brief, I thought, we always think when someone asks you questions about yourself, and under the banner of you're being asked, because you're quite successful. I don't know. I think it's always the first reaction to think, “Oh, I don't know, I did.” “Oh, I just got here.” I didn't know, can I really go back and think about what that journey was. So, it was really interesting to think about those moments that have led up to now and genuinely what I would say, I feel sorry for my 21-year-old self like most older women do, because you look back and think “God, just didn't show you're thin and you are gorgeous and you're so beautiful and attractive.” And it's all getting shipped from His, you do think that but no, it was interesting to think back to that time, because I don't think you do too much to be quite honest. You might look back to your 40s or your 30s. But very rarely do you tend to look back to 21. So, it was enjoyable things. Thanks for making me do that.
Max: For those who don't know, you tell us a bit about yourself, the role that you currently have and a bit about Rosie?
Rosie: Well, I am President, which is the same title as CEO, basically. But, it sounds rather grandeur or more ridiculous, depending who you are, of Havas Play, which is the kind of sports, cultural, entertainment agency within the Havas network. So, Havas is big global agency network, and I have run the UK that will support cultural entertainment arm of that, essentially.
I've been there for, in fact, I just commenced my fifth year. I joined there five years ago. I was doing the ode there to kind of get into what the organisation was like, what my role was going to be and what my task was going to be. So, it's quite a nice point that isn't it? 5 and 10, the big numbers. So, that's what I do now and it's great.
Max: We've managed to survive the pandemic in amongst that five years as well.
Rosie: Yes, I suppose year two wasn't perhaps the year quite thought it was going to be like many people. The first year, I was brought in to actually run an agency called Cake, which has a very big place in the industry.
Mel: Many friends and peers have cut their teeth at Cake.
Rosie: Oh my God. This year cake, we transformed into Havas Play along with a department that had a different set of core services. We put something out on LinkedIn, which was obviously, Rosie Holden, CEO of Cake now, promoted to President of Havas Play. And do you know, it wasn't Cake brilliant? The outpouring of grief was like quite something for Cake. In fact, I joined when I was 21. So, I think Mark Whelan, who was one of the guys have found it as well, he is still at Havas. Mark Whelan, made it the PR people originally were like, 25 years perfect. We did 25 years. And we put this thing about, 25 years of Cake.
It was extraordinary that hundreds of people that put comments on LinkedIn that asked me if we were doing a party and all that type of thing, but people have gone on to amazing careers. It really wasn't an agency that likes to… Well, it was! It was first of its kind in really creating brand entertainment, entertainment for brands, entertainment through brands. It was really fantastic.
So, I was brought in by years ago to run that. It had kind of lost its way a little bit. In fact, when I was asked about the job, I remember saying “Cake, Oh my god. They were so cool.” I'd been working brand side of Vans and they had Rizla account and I ended up doing brand stuff with Vans. I remember thinking they're really, really cool.
Anyway, then it was called about the job. And I kind of said, are they still going. They just don't have any volume in the marketplace. They were still obviously doing great work. And when I arrived, I was like, “Oh, my God, you were doing all this great work, but no one knows about it.”
The first year was really about, what's the right expression, finding Cake its rightful place in the agency world and out there in the big world and be turning up the volume, giving it a bit more prominence going back out, creating award winning work, making sure everyone's doing all that type of stuff, make sure everyone's happy. So that was we got to the end of 2019. And we were like, “this is great.”
I had this amazing moment. I will find a picture somewhere of all of the staff having this amazing Christmas party, and they're all holding me up while I was lying down on top of them. It was really brilliant. And they were all really happy, which was great.
Then of course 2020 came and it was like, “Oh, the YouTube was meant to be… keep going north type thing.” But everyone experienced it, and it was fine. Nothing terrible happened. I think in the network, they were all saying Cakes gonna be decimated because we're a rights holder, partnership and experiential agency first and foremost. Some of our biggest clients activating it, BAFTA, Glastonbury, Wembley, through football partnerships, the Home Nations partnership, and none of that was happening.
But actually we just pivoted to digital, made loads of content, is absolutely brilliant, didn't lose a penny and finish the year again, getting strong and then bounced back like everyone else did.
So I can't remember I was telling you all that now but started at Cake transformed into Play. It was amazing. And yeah, absolutely love it. It's great.
Mel: I love how you casually go “Oh, yeah, we just pivoted to digital.” Like that's a really normal thing. Actually one of the things I picked up through the letter and obviously knowing you and looking unabashedly stalking you through LinkedIn and stuff in prep for this was so many transitions you've made.
You've cut your teeth in a client world of Vans and Adidas and like you've come over to agency, you yourself talk about being in PR, but now you run a multifaceted, multi-discipline agency, because it defines so many of your passions. How have you found navigating those sorts of changes? Because a lot of people question that jump between client and brand. I'd argue you've gone the hard way to go from client to agency. But you've navigated so many changes and become the head of a multi-discipline agency doing award-winning work. So how has that journey been?
Rosie: Well, I think there are a few answers to that. One is that I think for anyone who knows me now I have pretty much boundless energy until it gets to about like, 10:30pm then just have to go to bed. So I love new things, and embracing new skills, new people, new technological developments, new innovations, all that stuff.
I think in terms of what I've done, if I look back, yes, they're in the same world, but they are very, very different. But I've probably looked out for that, because I never wanted to do just one thing. I think that the brand and agency thing is quite interesting, isn't it? Because brands love it. When you're a bit more senior, and you've had an agency experience, what you can bring to a brand is something quite special. But I see I started out as a junior within a brand. I mean, it was quite phenomenal when I went to an agency and I went to M&C Saatchi sport and entertainment.
Mel: Not just any agency, M&C Saatch.
Rosie: Jamie and Steve, who still good contacts of mine, good friend of mine, and absolutely one of my champions. I remember going for the interview. And I think you know what, it's quite funny story. I was at Vans. I've been there for about eight years. And I was thinking today Well, I can't get cabbage clothe before 30. This is just really bad. This is embarrassing. I really should look for a new job. I loved it at Vans. I mean, what's not to love incredible brand. I did loads of different things there as well. I worked in like customer service or I was the Independent Sales. Then I ended up in like a marketing PR function, working with all the athlete teams, all the snowboarders and skaters. And so it was it was amazing. But I just thought I need to do something proper plus I bought a house, I would have bought my first flat. So I suddenly thought I need to earn some money as well. So I knew nothing about agency world, because it Vans then we'd never even used an agency. Everything was done in house.
I was actually visiting my cousin who is also works in PR but he works in local government. So really, really the opposite side of what I've ever done. And I've gone to stay with him in Burnie and he said to me. He had like a copy of PR Week lying around and I sort of leafing through it. And I saw this job in it, it said M&C Saatchi. They said Senior Account Manager I had no idea what all the levels were for Reebok. Someone who's got skateboarding experience and I sort of cut it out and then I thought about it for about a week. And I thought, yeah, you know what I should go for this. There can't be that many people that know enough about sort of sneaker culture, sneaker lifestyle and skateboarding.
So I did apply for it. And then had my interview with Steve. I remember going and having glass of water in the Atrium. I don't know if they're still in Golden Square and my hands were shaking so much. I was so nervous because I never been into an office of corporate. My first jobs were in like recording studios and things. It was just like, “Oh, my God.” But Steve was lovely, put me at ease.
Obviously, I ended up getting the job, which is brilliant. So went there and then ended up going back and then went to Adidas after that, so went back brand side, and I was a bit more senior, and that's when they start to go, “Oh, like agency.” They really appreciate this, really different type of thinking and rigour perhaps. The stuff that becomes second nature when your agency but perhaps, now's a different. It's going back a very long time, but perhaps they're not so much so.
That was absolutely brilliant and that was a fantastic job. I've worked at the head office in Germany in Nuremberg which I don't know if you've been to. It's like the middle of nowhere. And I used to work there. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So Monday and Friday, I'd work in London. Tuesday morning, I get up at like half four or five, go to Stansted, jump on a flight, get to Nuremberg, get a cab, be at my desk by 10. Work till Thursday and then do the same fly back on a Thursday night and be back in London to work on the Friday because it was weird contract I suppose. I don't think they do that. Now I think they just happy to have the right talent.
I loved it. It was absolutely fantastic experience. I was working in the global brand team and on global brand and it came a point and they said where do you want another permanent role here because these have been contract work. But I just met still my now husband as other wishes, obviously a miracle for anybody. And with it being in the middle of nowhere and he's just said, let you know, I can't relocate. And I didn't do it for him. By the way, I want to point that out. But I wasn't ready too.
I was just in the wrong life stage. So I'd been working in the London office, Mondays and Fridays and got to know the UK team. And amazing woman calls Sarah Gower, who's only recently retired actually, she said to me, Look, we've got this little category called originalist. I don't know if we know it, but you know, it's more fashion. Yeah, I've been working in sport performance team, is a bit more of a fashion category. We're going to invest in it a bit more. We've got London 2012 coming up. So the focus will be on our sport categories, but actually originalist we need someone who understands sports well, but also comes from more of a fashion brand perspective. And I've not done heaps by then, like Nike and Umbro and then obviously at the Vans.
And she said what you want to do with it. So then I chose to take it as a piece of business to it, then fledgling agency, John Doe. And then so went back to agency side, but I didn't think I was going to. I love doing brand side work because ultimately a decision is up to you and you are the champion, you are the owner of that brand agency, which Steve Martin used to love me for me to see. Because I used to drive me to distraction it took me about a year to get relaxed into it.
You can only counsel and advise and recommend. And if your client turns around says, I think that's great. But actually can you do this thing that I know you consider a terrible idea? But could you just do it? You have to do it?
Mel: Sure. I can't think of anything more I'd like to do.
Rosie: I took me a while to have that response and attitude. But I did get there. I did get there in the end. Now I see it differently. Both sides are so fascinating and hopefully I brought something fresh and new to each of those roles that perhaps they might not have had before. I love it. I've been working with a brilliant woman recently who's also worked brand and agency side. And she can really bring something different to many of my staff that have just worked through. All brilliant agencies, there's not a criticism at all. But I think if you can expose yourself to an in house role and an agency role, whatever you do next is going to benefit.
Mel: It think it is that diversity, isn't it? Because we see a lot of people especially the more junior Elevators that come through and people that are looking to sort of start their career that think it has to be quite linear. So being understanding that there can be that fluidity and flexibility and there's value in that diversity of experience is key 100%.
Max: You've got it as well.
Mel: Yeah, I did the same thing. But I went from agency side to client side and whilst for the right role, I might have gone back to agency side because I think there's so much value in agency. I definitely think it's much harder to transition to go from client to brand. So I was curious and Max wants to ask you about the how does it feel in the RAF.
Rosie: Boring it with my career history.
Max: I think last time we met we had a speaking stick. I was gonna say which did you prefer? Or which side that brand or agency side? Which appeals to you more perhaps?
Rosie: That is an impossible question to answer because both are very, very different in many ways. And the last in house role I had was Adidas and I loved it, I loved that brand. I love being part of a global team. I loved being able to really affect creative decisions and creative output alongside the brand itself and so on and so forth. But I love the kinds of rest of agency. By then, I've been in a lot of footwear brands. I have done Vans and Reebok, then Nike and then Addie.
And what I loved about agency is your exposure to multiple, multiple categories, and their different business challenges. For me, the work and the creative output has always been of the utmost importance. But interestingly, if you'd said to me 10 years ago, what my clients that now Jackie, Landrover say, I love the work that we do on that, but if you'd said to me, Oh, you're gonna be doing like cars and network stuff 10 years ago, I would have been like, Are you kidding me? I only work for like, really cool street wear brands. So it depends on what you're doing for them would be the answer, but it's impossible, because I couldn't choose between the two.
Mel: I think there's also something in what you've said there as well, that really resonates with me, which is, I think sometimes we can put blockers up for ourselves of I would never do that. But sometimes the right brief or the right combination of people at the right time in your career, actually some of those doors that you think you should keep shut actually be peeking open. There's some exciting stuff behind it.
Rosie: 100%. I mean, I know is about when I look back to when I was 21. But if I'd thought about that, when I'd been in my mid 30s, might be in a different place to now because I didn't see that. I was really, I didn't know, I wasn't say naive or just a bit stupid or not. I should have been more open minded, and probably jobs I was approached about, I thought, I'm not gonna do that. That's so deeply uncool. And really now I'd be like, this was amazing. Why didn't you do? Actually the challenges here and the freedom you've got or the budget scale, for example, you'd really, really love doing that.
Max: With the letter, then we asked you to write that letter to younger self and you started at the age of 21, and very much this RFP piece. So we'll get onto that into a moment.
Mel: I can imagine you as a fighter pilot, by the way, I think you'd have been the coolest one.
Rosie: Clients be a navigator, actually, not a pilot, but I did want to be aircrew. So there you go. Yeah, thank you. Good. Great Minds.
Max: I was gonna say even at that point, did you have any aspirations to be in the kind of role you're in now? Or was there any kind of, I suppose, this kind of Northstar aspect of going, I'd love to run this massive global agency or otherwise, and things…
Rosie: I didn't even know about that world. If you'd asked me I mean, I didn't know what an agency was. I didn't know about what roles there could be. I didn't know. And do you know how I'm gonna be kind, where I did think that the careers advice at school was actually really, really good. And I went to a local high school in small Yorkshire Village. I shared my work experience in the press officer Opera North, because I loved music. And I loved singing. And so it's quite funny, because in a way, I did end up doing one, what they put me towards many, many ways. But I didn't know about that. I didn't know it was an option. It's so funny, because I haven't talked about the Air Force thing for so many years. But obviously, it was reminded me of what I was doing when I was 21. Because I just graduated, and I didn't know what to do. And I spent my third year thinking, I think I joined the Air Force.
Max: But you graduated with politics?
Rosie: Politics. Yes. A politics degree, which I come across quite a lot with my staff, and a lot of my agencies, a lot of people, so politics and economics or, politics and philosophy.
Mel: I think pop down right at Downing Street that would be great.
Rosie: Well, you know, I can certainly. If anyone's listening, I can give them my number. I can definitely saw that one out. I was gonna say to you, rather than running an agency? Did I want to be in charge? Yes. Probably. I know I made the point about when I'd, it was officer selection. And I think it was very clear, within a very short space of time that neither I was right for. I wasn't what they were looking for and they weren't what I was looking for. And the first thing was this sort of realisation of just being told what to do all the time. And that was never going to suit me.
But I'd always had creative pastimes, and came from a very sort of creative bohemian background. So I didn't know about the creative industries. I didn't know that was a path you could choose. When I did my A levels, when I went to uni, I didn't really think about that at all. And you didn't have to then. Now it's very, very different, isn't it? And sadly, in many, many ways about and there's kind of commercialization of that and what students have to think about what they're going to be doing, how they're going to finance it. I did grant and I grant in my first or second year, coming from a single parent family. So, actually given money to pay for my rent, which you know, is unheard of now, but anyway, I wish I'd known about that. But I didn't know about. I didn't know the WPP group's grad scheme, like there just wasn't, I mean, it must have existed back then. But I wouldn't have known about anything like that.
Max: You talk about your upbringing then and obviously the creativity plays a huge part in your letter to yourself about where that steers you in some of these. You made the comment about the kind of the changing roles things like that. Talk to me about a bohemian upbringing and what did that look like…
Mel: …in Huddersfield?
Max: Yeah, and all of this creativity then that you had as a child team and who you like then?
Rosie: Well, me and my mom relocated to Yorkshire when I was about nine, I think. She was a lecturer and she worked at a college called Bretton Hall, which was the arts college part of Leeds University. In fact, I remember her taking me to 30 years closing show when I was probably about 10. And Mark Thomas, the comedian was the star of the show. There's quite a few people I've met since then, that went to Bretton Hall. It's Yorkshire sculpture park now, very, very beautiful, highly recommend it. But it was part of Leeds University.
We went there. And my mom was in the kind of English literature and Cultural Studies Department. So, she'd had me relatively young. She was very young mom. We were around that sort of environment where there were lots of creative people who entrusted lots of creative things. So that was just normality for me, I think. When I was doing my GCSEs, as it was coming up to like, the 1990. Well, you know, 1989-1990 became very interesting place to be in that area of the North. You had Manchester kicking off you, you had The Hacienda opening. I think I found my Stone Roses ticket the other week, which was amazing to when I went to Spike Island. I threw myself with enthusiasm and gusto into going to see every Mancunian band that I possibly could in either in Manchester or Leeds.
I remember one of my best friends, Lucy, passed her driving test when we were 17 and that was it, you know. It was just freedoms. We were going off to clubs and gigs all the time. So that was another part of creativity. And I think that being a part of something, a cultural moment, as exciting as that is always going to have an impact on you in some respect.
Moving into the 90s, it was coming out of the Thatcherism of the late 80s. The area that I grew up in when we'd first moved to Yorkshire was just so badly my next door neighbours were part of the minor strike. There was deep poverty, but there was a different feeling in the 90s, particularly in the north. It wasn't as depressing as it used to be, so I think there was all of that when I look back at my school. There's an incredible amount of people in the creative arts and my best friend became Hollywood actress. She's very well-known when my ex-boyfriend,
Mel: You can't drop that and not say,
Rosie: I can't. But you know, and then my ex-boyfriend was in a band. In fact, a girl I did my GCSE drum with one a music prior, she's a very well-known folk singer. So, it's a lot to do with the area but it definitely the spirit of its time as well, maybe I don't know.
Max: That's interesting, given then the success that's come out of it. And equally then you taking almost steering away from that to go politics, RAF, was that just you trying to find your way there? Or was it a case of actually I'm going to get some firmer grounding and kind of education some things and then go and have a plan to?
Rosie: I think I was being a bit what was that programme called was Edina and Patsy, Ab fab. Me and my mom used to love about, I think I was being a bit stuffy. I think I was like, right, I'm gonna go and do something.
I did have a side it was very intellectual, and enjoyed intellectual debate and learning, and so on and so forth. So I think there was always a bit of an as we've seen the grabbed bit of a tension between the two. I always wanted to go out and have fun and all that type of stuff. But equally, you know, I was really interested in academia.
And so as I think I was a bit torn, so I don't know, God knows, what my thought process was about that. I think the path was you do a levels and go to uni, it was less than but unless you were going to do a vacation like law or whatever I think you just went and did some, and then you move to London, like it was just what you did.
There was less real thought process around it. But yeah, I can't tell you I didn't just go and run away to Manchester and join a volunteer.
Mel: It was the tribute band, which we were curious about. Max was going to try and get you to sing the intro. Yeah.
Rosie: Yeah, that's that was a long time ago.
Mel: Well, let's talk about your industriousness because getting into the industry you mentioned in the letter as well, going through the Guardian and cutting out sort of potential jobs and this real sort of industriousness and willingness to kind of put yourself in to different places, and you talk about working in music studios and what have you. But your first real entry and foray into this space was not the sort of big, high powerful job that you expected to be you were the PA and office manager, right?
Rosie: Yes, I was. Well, the first ever job actually. So when I'd finished uni and decided that I was clearly the RAF was not going to be the place where I spent my life career. I used to get the media Guardian on a Monday, obviously, pre internet. I mean, there was that's where jobs were published. I don't know what we did from Tuesday to Sunday, but not much. You just wait for it to come out. And then I sort of open it and literally go through anything that I thought I could apply for and then you get your CV and put it in place. So actually, the first job I ever had, which was not long, either, was in a recording studio, and it was like one of those residential recording studios where bands go to make albums and things like that.
I thought it's gonna be really, really cool. But it just turned out all my mates had like, moved to central London and this was miles out in Surrey and all that type of thing. So I moved because I thought like, you know, okay, this isn't working handed my notice after six months, moved in with my then boyfriend, isn't sort of Wimbledonness-ish area and found myself a new job in the area and went to office angels in Wimbledon, and looked for a job and she said, Well, we've got this job, is it this brand called Vans? And I was like, Yes, I know, Vans, obviously, but it was PA to the director then. And it was a distributorship, so that he actually distributed Vans Eastpak. And there was another app. There's another outdoor brand, and he was one of the main investors in Hypercolor T shirts. I don't know if anyone's old enough to remember that. But they were like, can we have white T shirts that change colour when you sweat it? And this is somehow…
Mel: I think it was designed to be handprints. But the unfortunate reality was, yeah, if you were slightly warm. Yeah, it was unforgiving. So yeah, it was
Max: Massive sweatpants. Just to highlight that fact, go different color.
Mel: It was like bright neon colour.
Rosie: Yes, neon colours. It wasn't subtle. I must find that he's got the distributorship and look into that and bring it back, a little sideline. So I was like, Okay, this is great. This is a cool brand, but also, it's local. Because obviously, the salaries were very low those days. And I was like, Cool, this is in Wandsworth. I can actually walk to work. So, I did that. So I just got a job locally.
But it was lucky because it was this amazing brand, which at the time they said was distributed. So it wasn't owned by Vans. I remember when we hit our first half a million quid of revenue. And by the time I left, it was a lot more than that. And it's still to VF Corporation. And, you know, it's huge. But Vans were only sold via a very small network of independent skate shops or small streetwear shops. And then it was while I was there, over the next 9 years that then we'll get regrew the brand. And then of course, it moved into more of the UK, high street retail chain.
But like it was pure laziness, probably the first I thought, Oh, it's pretty cool. And I could walk to work, that's amazing. So just worked up there, and though, being a PA and office manager, you kind of learn everything about the business. And you're party to all of this confidential information, which is like really bad for me, because then anyone who knows me would be like, God, don't tell her anything or she's easy to get the glasses. So I was fine. In a professional way, it's completely different. But it really exposes, and it was a small business, essentially. So that was really fascinating process. And then being there for nine years, seeing you went through all of the transformation. So it was bought out by Vans, first of all, which is when I became Rosie, not Rose. And that's when the email was invented.
Because I had to come up with an email and was like, what is this email? And I think I put roseholden@vans.com. And it came back as Rosie Holden, and I could be asked to change it. So then everyone just start calling me, Rosie, I thought that that's fine. But went through lots of business transformation and then all these roles I was telling you about as well.
Mel: And then your step into PR.
Rosie: Yes. Well, that's where it started. So I think I'd been there for it was around 2003 when my boss who, them some very good friends with them, bless him, I think he still thinks that he's responsible for my entire career success. So I said, look Danny and I'm getting a bit bored and I've done all these sales jobs or customer service and he said you know what, I think you'd be really good at his PR. He said do you love chatting. You love the product. You love telling stories. I like embellishing stories, I think he means, and he said you know really know what that means? And I said well, not really. And he said right. He said we were using this PR agency, but I'm gonna get rid of them and you could do it all and I was like, okay, cool. He said, maybe just call the owner and see what she used to do. So we literally built it from scratch, and we did have a good marketing director as well, who was clearly able to guide me in the right direction. But yes, that was the PR manager for UK work from 2003 was really the role that then probably set me on my path to where I am now.
Max: You mentioned in your letter, and whether it was prior to Vans or after there being a couple of twists and turns, but equally, perhaps a couple of wrong moves or say mistakes but the course wasn't quite as clear set, what were those twists and turns? And equally, what were the kind of key lessons that you learned from those that stayed then this kind of track to success?
Rosie: There's probably been loads. So I'll try stick to maybe just one or two. But if I think probably everyone makes mistakes. Everyone I know who's successful has had a job that they wish they hadn't taken or that they'd made, they'd left something that they wish they hadn't left. And I think that's a really healthy thing to do. I think I've done that twice, probably in my career. And you won't find them anywhere on LinkedIn or my CV, but I'm sure other people if anybody really know there. But you know, chosen to leave something and then gone somewhere that wasn't right.
I think that's absolutely a very healthy mistake to make and something that builds your resilience and sharpens your focus. Because actually, it's just as powerful to know what you don't like doing as it is. Like I said, I didn't know what to do when I was 21. I didn't know I wanted to do X. But gradually through different processes, you learn what you don't want to do. And that kind helps you channel where you need to get to as well.
Max: Call it The Magpie Effect, something quite shiny that you see and you think that could be next one, you go in there and then suddenly realise, Christ, there's absolutely nothing going on here in the right way and it's complete smoke and mirrors to an extent.
Rosie: It's so true. Two of the instances I can think of and I probably did it, maybe three times actually now I'm thinking about it, but I think that's fine. People shouldn't worry about those type of mistakes. I actually think it's a perfectly healthy and maybe even more than that. It gives you an edge, gives you a different point of view on things that people did, perhaps all those people that never make mistakes, so you have the perfect job forever.
But it's just helps you (a) really think about yourself and what you do want; (b) I don't know, bit of who risk may be, but that's perhaps a chance to step back and think, why was I attracted by that beautiful, shiny object over there? And was that really close to my values? Now I'm here is that sitting well with me? So, a little bit of self-examination and then I think you're able to sit back and go, right, but you kow what, I've still got loads to get, what do I want, I'm going to go out there and find the next thing.
I've got a 10-year-old daughter, and the most important thing to me for her at the moment is building resilience. If something doesn't go your way, you just got to keep going, put your hand back up, or just do another thing. And I think, adults should think like that as well really. We've been conditioned to think that you don't make those mistakes as you get older, but you do and that's why just keep building on it.
Max: A lot of what we hear in the incredible guests that we have on here is, it's about how you kind of fell forward and equally seeing it's not as failures or learning things like that. I think we've seen that there's so much pressure and pretends on making a mistake has been this life ending type matter where in actual fact, it's a learning and the point you made about those perhaps wrong moves, but actually teaching you more and definitely, when I've made, I've been Magpied, is gone in there and genuinely talked about is The Magpie Effect.
Rosie: So we make it a thing and get into the vernacular.
Max: We can trademark if we want. We have been magpied.
Rosie: We have been magpied. No one will be talking about the ick, they will be talking about the episode when we got the magpie. But we will want a piece of this by the way.
Mel: This is when the trademark happens.
Max: There is that premise that actually you learn almost more from how not to do things completely than it is being told how to do things in the right way, perhaps. And I think that learning is worth almost kind of 10 times to some extent.
Rosie: 100%. It doesn't feel like it at the time and perhaps it's easier for me to sit here as an older than I was obviously like everyone but an older person as well, by the way, and think Oh, that's okay. You know, it doesn't feel it at the time, but you've just got to build that inner steel as I tell a lot of my staff, and build that resilience, because you will learn more from it. And it's a bit like, I don't know, what you talk about work and you say, God, you finish a campaign, it might be the worst thing you've ever done, like the client was really difficult. It's really painful. People were crying, and there was really late nights and it was all very dramatic. And then a year later, someone's going oh, that that was my favourite bit of work. That was amazing.
Max: You mean the trenches together.
Rosie: You know, similar sort of thing as well.
Max: With that, then in some of the moves, and obviously going through those different roles early on and trying to find a base, is there been someone from a guiding, mentoring type perspective that you've had along the way? Or how or who has played that kind of role or influenced your kind of career in that respect?
Rosie: I've never had one mentor but I kind of wish I had. I've got to be honest, I think, you know, I think it would have been great, but I've been so lucky to work, but have a series of them really, and people that have been so interesting and so useful in caring about what I did next.
That's always been very important to me in a role that I've taken, is there that person that I can look up to and learn from? I feel I've had a set of people that have really helped guide me. Plus, do you know what I am? I don't have an ego. I'll put my hand up if I don't know something, I'll ask the question. And I will always go to someone with counsel. If I have an opportunity, I can think of several examples now. I've gone to someone and said, this is just going to be what do you think I might call Steve Martin out of the blue from M&C. He runs exposure for you, I worked there for a short time a few years ago or Dan, the guy was talking about, he gave me my first break at Vans in PR. I was actually texting with him last Friday, because it's a sport business. It was down the road from his house, and I've been flirting with him and asked him, I would always ask for advice and seek counsel and guidance and that's probably been a huge help, obviously.
Max: That’s self-awareness and you have them reached out rather than waiting for that help or that guidance.
Rosie: 100%
Mel: We talk about that a lot actually, within Elevate this sense of the more senior you get, the more answers you have in your, you know it all and actually, you need to keep learning and growing. And making sure you have that group of people around you that you can go to for advice or counsel or pick their brains on and it becomes almost more important as you get more senior to have that kind of impact, I'd say.
Rosie: 100%. I think that's really true. And I think I'm really lucky enough that I have. I'm surrounded by these brilliant people that I work with at Play. They're my colleagues who could say they work for me. They're the experts and I will always ask their expert opinion. And isn't that exciting that, you could go and ask all these brilliant people, like the answers to questions, how fantastic, that's just more interested in typing into Google, but more knowledge. So, I think that's really, really important.
Mel: I'm curious because you've done similar things to me and my career. And there's some things that you said, that really sparked an interest which, at such a young age to have a role that you started from scratch, had a PR in the UK for Vans.
How did you navigate designing a role from scratch and then an offering from scratch? Because those are two different things. How much of that do you think has shaped the way that you've approached some of the challenges, director of a big agency, going into something like Cake that has such history? How much of that has been informed by those early experiences?
Rosie: It's a really good question. And I've never actually thought about it that way. I think when I have talked about that experience, when I talk about that time, at Vans, what I know that I got from it was that it was a small business. And I had the freedom and the independence to make decisions with guidance, but you could do what you wanted to do. And you could fail and that was okay. So it probably had a huge impact actually on how I've come into businesses later or been given briefs around to re-energise a business or automate decisions around, recreating an exciting new offer.
I suppose at the time at Vans it was an independent business and I was very close to all the people in it because we were tiny office, like, you could just learn everything on the hoof. But equally it was you had that freedom, because it was a brand that everybody loved. We were trying to build something really quickly. I suppose to build an incredible commercial operation as quickly as possible. So, actually, I think that probably had an incredible positive impact on my later roles. Probably never thought about that way before to be honest.
Mel: Again, I think for so many of our listeners, so early on, sometimes having that experimental mindset and being unafraid and unencumbered by what's gone before and just trying new stuff. And, I guess the muscle memory that builds and the opportunity to think about things is really valuable. So, instead of being afraid of those opportunities, so grabbing them.
Rosie: Yeah, definitely. When I went to John Doe, when I took that piece of Adidas business there, absolutely incredible CEO, Rachel Bell, incredible woman; there are lots of graduates from the Rachel Bell school out in the industry and in the marketplace. They have all done brilliantly as well. But it's similar mindset.
She's run independent businesses. There is very much that I will teach you how to run a business, and I'll teach you how to turn what you call your intuition into good business acumen. I think it's the two. I do still strongly believe that some people can have a good commercial sense about it. But you can actually build on that as well. And so interestingly, I mean, I only left there was seven years ago, maybe now, but taking that sort of spirit and thinking still into a big agency network was super valuable as well.
Max: I find it fascinating that CEO/President of a large agency group is to someone in their earlier years or their career to kind of go right, that's what I'm after, and trying kind of plot this pathway to getting there. Is there any kind of advice that you would give or the key moments, we thought this is one of those moments, that's really meant that kind of stepping stone towards that goal?
Rosie: I think, in terms of advice, I mean, I'd love to meet somebody says, yeah, I want to be a CEO of a creative agency.
Max: So, how does, I'm trying to obtain the picture of how it happens? But do you have had that clarity, or it quite literally is playing the cards in front of you. And actually, then it's only because of that the next kind of hand is played a slightly different or provided a different opportunity.
Rosie: Wow. Interesting mix, isn't it? I think that if your ambition is to be CEO of a creative agency, then you need to have a blend of two things. One is passion for the highest quality, creative output, and want to do your very best, which means with that comes surrounding yourself with brilliant talent, having a workplace, that means that brilliant talent want to be there and work with you and share your vision and goal and all that type of thing. And the other is running a business, I get asked to help out with other businesses now in different industries and categories.
What's interesting is obviously, a lot of that is transferable, and I feel lucky that I get to run a business. That is everything I've ever wanted in a business. It's creative, it's hard, but it's around sport, it's around music, it's around entertainment, it's like all the strands of my life that have been pulled into one beautiful place. But equally, I could have ended up, CEO running a, I don't know, paint company, and I might not have felt quite as passionate about that or you can still yet, I think it needs to be the blend to find something you're incredibly passionate about. And then learn how to run a business and inevitably, and be a good person. But inevitably, that will work for you and you've just got to work really hard at it.
Max: We've always had that though, that element of running your own business, being your own boss.
Rosie: That's a really good point. I bring that up quite a lot and I think that it's important to me. But then people would say, well, why'd you work for big agency network then? But I am given that for one of the reasons I love working at Havas is that I feel I have that freedom, but also the support of a network and the scale and the heft, which is really what I wanted, from a big role.
I think that my personality type, going back to, I never like being told what to do. I want to be in charge, want to make my own decisions because I think I'm right. I said that to my head of strategy, I was like, thing is, you know, I just think I'm right, about everything. That's a good position to start with.
Obviously, quite often the case I'm not. But I think I feel to have an independent mindset and to feel that a business is yours, will always set you on the right path. I once read Karren Brady. One of my cousin's gave me her biography.
Max: Lord Sugar, the Apprentice.
Rosie: Yes. Baroness Brady with beautiful hair. Every time I see, I was like, I bet she has a blow dryer every morning which is like something ice/fire too.
Max: It is a very nice comment that actually her husband will go and fill up her car every evening that she has a late night in order to set her off the day in the right way.
Rosie: I obviously love that. But she wrote about her. I mean, it's really quick read if anyone wants to read it, you probably do it in a night. But one of the comments that struck me was that she knew how much the cost of a pint of milk is at that time for her organisation. So, if someone said, she's running, I think it was at West Ham and it had its challenges. She went in there and was like, you don't even know how much you spend on milk a week. But she knew that. And so that really stayed with me, it was like be as forensic as possible.
Then, the other thing that Rachel taught me was you treat every penny as your own. And I do that and I've had a couple of experience as of where I've helped agencies rebalance their commercial success should we say and that is usually down to me thinking if we pound every penny like them, then those things are pennies anymore… let’s start with pounds. But it's yours, you're not spending someone else's money and it makes you much more responsible around what you're doing and quite rightly.
Max: She talks about the challenge of, I'm not going to say kind of infiltrating, but essentially kind of owning a place on that board of West Ham, entirely male dominated things like that. Have you found as you've come through the kind of the ranks into your role of now as CEO, that there is ever been that kind of challenge, being a female or I know that there's obviously in our industry, the creative industry, that still quite a male dominated kind of top tier and things like that? Have you ever found that challenge? And equally, how have you overcome that?
Rosie: That is a very big question. That's probably a whole topic in itself. There's two ways I can answer that.
One is that I feel I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by supportive teams, which include lot of men, I mentioned a few of them you know this evening, and championed, me and my chosen career and my skills and experience? So personally, I don't feel I've been held back in my career choice and where I've got to the role I do now.
That's about me and where I've got to in my role, I think there are still huge mountains to climb around the female experience in the workplace. How you can still feel and it's so hard to articulate but excluded from certain conversations or just meetings or that's still a reality.
I take that very seriously, I have some of the women Havas group where we want to further equity in the workplace, but also improving a female experience at work. So, I feel very lucky that I've always had brilliant, forward thinking, non-sexist and non-misogynist men in my life, in my career. So I haven't felt held back. But I recognise that is still a reality and every woman has the responsibility to make that a thing of the past for every other woman, not just your own personal experience.
Mel: Just bowing down to Rosie here. Obviously, as someone that's cultivated and created a career that's based on learning and growing, you're the President of Havas Play, what's next? What are the things that you're looking at? What are the other things that you're hoping to grow and learn? What are you still excited, I guess, about stuff? Because most people would think, well, this is the ceiling, where else do you go? Are you still learning and growing? Are there still things out there that you're like, “Oh, I want to have a crack at that.”
Rosie: Oh! Definitely, sure what I'm gonna say. I was 50 very recently. And my first thought I turned around to someone at work and said, Ah, but I still have so much to do. I haven't done anything yet. I was only like, this is literally the beginning. Then, I spoke to someone recently, who was thinking about they're going on when I'm time to wind down soon and I was like, No way.
So, I still feel very excited. And of course, going back to the people, I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by, everyday some things do and everyday some things exciting. And of course, in this particular age that we're living in things are changing at pace, aren't they, almost like the Age of Enlightenment that was and so it's exciting to be a part of that, and what that will look like. I love being part of a big organisation. What's exciting about Havas Play is it is a global network. There's 17 Havas Play across the globe. So I'm working with them and I think that's very exciting, potential future for anyone who throws themselves into working hard to Havas Play.
There's lots of opportunities still. So I think from a day-to-day basis, I love getting up and going into work and being surrounded by interesting young people who tell me things that I didn't know, or position things and thinking in a way that I never thought of, so I love that. And then equally, I think I mean, I feel I've just started. There's way more things to be President.
Max: A tricky question. Do you consider yourself successful? Do you think you've made it?
Rosie: Not yet. Still too much to do.
Max: A couple more questions before we ask the big one around the advice, just wanted to go back to your letter. And it's tied into, I suppose, the advice thing, but you mentioned something that was kind of fundamental to how your career progressed things and you mentioned the term kind of stay useful. And I thought that was a really interesting one that stuck out to me. I think yourself as well. Can you elaborate on that slightly about this premise of staying Be Useful?
Rosie: Yeah, be useful. Well, do you know what I feel like? I'd say this hopefully the last time in my career, but I've like bastardise, something that Obama said. Because he said something years ago about what he wants, he's got two girls, and what values he wanted his children to grow up with. And particularly bearing in mind here, I mean, from one President to another, I think, kind of really empathise with his terrible dilemma…
But he said, I want them to be kind and be useful. Kindness and respect have been the two values, behaviours that I hope I've always inputted into any business that I've run any of the agencies that I've run. I think they're incredibly important. If only everyone could be kind and be respectful then the world would be a different place.
But then equally, there is another thing that's important that is be useful, do something useful. When you think about what did I do today, and obviously, everyone wants to do something fulfilling, but I don't think every day you can maybe do something fulfilling. I mean, I hope we can but not necessarily, but being useful, being needed by someone else, or making yourself needed by someone else, or doing something that for somebody else, I think that for me, that comes under useful, and you'll be a better person for it. And you can think about yourself as a better person for it.
What my grandparents brought me up when I was very little, and they were devout Catholics. I'm not a practising Catholic, but they were very much around being useful. It's actually I feel a quite modern interpretation of a very old Christian value. Really, it's not just be useful to yourself or be useful to the world, be useful to the people around you. So, does that is deep enough question.
Max: That proactive support and help to others really is exactly what is. The time has flown by kind of brings us then to now with some advice to yourself, almost. But what's that one piece of advice that so good throughout your career that's helped you that you would like to share with others?
Rosie: Is this my piece of advice?
Max: This is the big one.
Rosie: Big one “the world is run by people that turn up.”
I think that's an incredible sentence with incredible power, something that a CEO told me years ago. I think, occasionally, I've said the world is run by people that get up. So, you can change it. You could sort of be interchangeable with those depending on your life phase.
The world is run by people that turn up. You can't have an opinion, you can't change things, you can't affect things, and you can't move forward. You can't expect people to take you seriously if you're not there. And you can use that piece of excellent advice and counsel, when you think about… in your day-to-day workplace, whether it's sounds like just you know wasn't at the meeting, Be There. Turn up, have an opinion, but equally be present.
The world is run by people that turn up, I think, that also for me, thinks about being present in what you do and looking around you. And it is the thing that you need to be useful. But I think then on a flippant level, I think it's like, just be right I got to turn up, you got to be part of it. If you want to affect change, you wouldn't be in it to win it, whatever, then turn up, have a voice and get it done.
Max: So relevant to every stage of your career even if you are those having a voice and opinion.
Mel: Rosie, thank you so much. We could have carried on for hours I think.
Rosie: Thank you.
Max: Really appreciate it.
Rosie: Thank you for having me and listening to my rambles.
Mel: When we talk about refreshingly honest conversations, I don't think you can get more refreshingly honest in that conversation with Rosie.
Max: Where do you start with Rosie because she comes in here with a bundle of energy, more energy than me and she can talk more than me.
Mel: That's unusual.
Max: I know unusual, but throughout the entirety just she's entirely herself. And what you get is this honest account and I think that is something that surprises a lot of people when you get to a level of President or CEO of a global agency network. There is this layer of kind of front that you have to put on. But Rosie, just done it to her and that is exactly what you get, is very authentic, very human individual. And obviously, we love her and she was brilliant.
Mel: But I loved the way that she shared her journey and that path and the humble beginnings because I think a lot of people assume you have to go into certain agencies or certain roles, or you have to start at these big jobs. And we've seen it ourselves through the Elevate, mentoring sort of applications and the things you see especially at the junior people and junior levels of this expectation people have on themselves and I love that.
Rosie, cut out some ads in a newspaper, went down to the local office angels, who I remember actually going for jobs with back in the day, and took on a PA and Office admin job. But, yes, that happened to be Vans. But so often that is the foot in the doorway that leads to greatness. And she's taken a really interesting path through her career where she's gone for roles, rightly or wrongly, we'll talk about Magpie in a second.
But she's gone for those roles, that spike terror were interesting to have, she wasn't too proud to say, You know what, I'm bored here, I want to try something new, or, actually, I'm really comfortable here. But that job looks really shiny, and I'm gonna go for that. So she's pushed herself into new places and been brave enough to take decisions that you wouldn't ordinarily. I mean, she talks about Vans, people were there forever, she could have stayed forever, but she was brave. And she's made some impressive moves from client to agency and back again, it's not a conventional path at all.
Max: Those moves and we talked about the magpie effect of moving for something shiny, but knowing that, obviously, through the conversation, we want to ask and hear about and get really deep in there to know the challenges, the successes, and things like that. Some of those that she referred to mentioned, were those moves that perhaps were made for the right intent, but didn't flourish or turn out to be the right thing.
All of us, I think could agree with the fact that actually there are more learning sometimes to take from those moves or decisions and we can’t say mistakes or failures, and it comes up time and time again, it's learning from those and taking the best bits from them actually can be more valuable than doing it the right way.
Mel: I always think my auntie, God bless her soul, used to say to me, rainbows need rain and sunshine to form and distance to be appreciated. And I think sometimes that I know, bless her.
Max: What a lovely.
Mel: Bless aunt Tina. I think that's right because in the moment of anything, when you're dealing with a situation that hasn't gotten in the way that you think you failed, or you've made a mistake, or that this will be it because you're in it. And it is that sort of pathway and sort of racing towards about it, maybe now I can look back. And I can say that, because I'm a bit older, but it is that distance where you can look back and go. I learned so much from that. And actually, these are the things that I've put in place. I haven't gone for those sorts of roles since or I've noticed those sorts of people, those sorts of clients or those sorts of briefs that I don't go to, because you do.
I think all of us and I love that Rosie was so candid, like all of us have done things that you look back on and go. Oh, I'm not sure what I would do that again but we all appreciate the learnings that have come from them. And I think it's so refreshing to hear that because I think people will look at somebody in Rosie's position at this sort of President of Havas and think, Well, that's been a gilded career. And she's has done everything right and that's all gone well, and she's in those places and to hear people like Rosie, I've taken some missteps and I've learned things and she embraces those things.
Max: And throughout, we talk obviously from a mentoring perspective, but there are countless in Havas, not one single person, but countless people that have helped. we were talking earlier about, it's about the need to kind of nurture these relationships and nurture this network, in order to be able to lean or engage with these people, when the moment comes, where actually their expertise is something I need. And it links to the point that she made around being useful and I love that sentiment that she had around being needed and showing up, so being useful. And she used a couple of ways to explain it. If you're in the room, have an opinion and if you're there, serve a purpose to an extent to being useful.
Mel: Also, I loved that sentiment of still learning and growing and never feeling like you've got all the answers. And I love that when we sort of asked Rosie about, what's next, she was like, Oh, my God, I've only just started.
I think there's this impression that life's meant to stop or start at certain ages, or you're meant to hit certain milestones at certain bits and President of Havas Play, doesn't get much bigger, but she feels like it's only just beginning. I love that she talks about that, but also the need to lean on her team, those mentors and people that have helped and been those real sponsors as for her at different points, and that she's still leans on them.
I love how casually she talks about some of these people who are some of the industry heavyweights and people that have not just been part of culture but shaped culture and she is definitely one of those people.
Max: Then combination in the piece of advice around showing up right about that whole premise of being the room attended, don't be passive in this, be active, show up across all parts. I think that's a really true sentiment and obviously something she's led by this that's worked.
Mel: And it's not just something for senior people, it's like, go along to those meetings, learn have an opinion, add value, share your opinion, because actually even as the most junior person in the room, you'll have something to add and I love that sentiment that she shared. I think it's with so many of our guests, they've had such brilliant bits of advice and this is almost like a Bible being created in the background of life advice.
Max: Yeah, it is what it sticks with it. She also says, yes, to things, so all connects.
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