Episode 6
Shannie Mears
Co-founder + Head of Talent, The Elephant Room
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING’:
In this episode our guest is Shannie Mears, co-founder and head of talent at London based creative agency The Elephant Room. She’s a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, former government advisor, Adweek Future Female and 2023 Forbes 30 under 30. Formerly at GUAP as brand and talent manager she created The Blacklist, a list of 30 under 30 Black creatives and professionals across the creative industries now in its 6th year, and a former lecturer at Kingston University.
Shannie is a born entrepreneur. Her ability to build, connect and develop relationships with young people from the wider creative industries drives The Elephant Room’s talent network beyond any traditional agency’s reach.
Shannie is a window into completely untapped generation and a bridge between opportunity and people. She trys to find those people that are hungry and passionate, from the spaces and places the industry doesn’t usually look. She says that’s where the gems are.
Shannie says her success story could be so many other people success story if someone just took a chance on them, and that’s why she’s the perfect guest for this podcast.
Watch Shannie on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify, Apple or Google podcasts
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To the Shannie Mears of 1994.
Hello you!
You’ll be glad to know that I’m still talking to a dreamer, a thinker, a lover, the most opinionated person i know and trust me you know A LOT of people and you become even more curious. All those things are some of your biggest wins till this day. You’ll grow to control that temper and your drive to always help people is something that makes you do good at what you do. Losing Dad affects you more in your later years and you probably only truly begin to process that post university but everything will be okay.
It’s been hard since Su got sick (2004) and sadly she’ll never be the same again but as you always do you find a way to cope through the challenges and there's still so much hope amongst that dysfunction. Dancing your first love helps you through a lot and you must never stop or atleast try not to, you’ll do that for a long time.
You're a great teacher and not only do you teach dance for a long time, but one of your proudest moments is when you become a university lecturer, yup and you are brilliant too.
Your best years are still yet to come but wow have you done yourself proud - graduated, moved out, got a job and started your own business even when you were convincing yourself you couldn’t (yup, you do that sometimes, something you’ll keep working on) because trust me you continue to give yourself no reason to doubt yourself, your doing great!
I can’t tell you the lead up to 30 is going to be easy and the truth is it will be bloody hard! But along the way you have really built a name for yourself. Not only did you impress your CEO who becomes a big part of your life, partner in crime and mentor but you start a creative agency and your success is within your own right - don’t change and don’t let anyone dim that light!
Forbes 30 under 30, Adweek’s future female, you create the Blacklist for GUAP giving SO many others an opportunity to shine and create communities that embody that and onwards. Proud of you Girl.
Things get interesting when you decide to move to Amsterdam, once again that dreamer in you and you find a new place called home. Your curiosity takes you to so many great places and Amsterdam was one of them. I know you will see yourself there.
You're yet to enter the best chapter, your baby is on its way. And that’s all I can tell you from here on because they haven’t arrived yet but I'm so excited to meet the Shannie who becomes a mum, a very cool one at that. You’ll have great support and again another journey that is bound to surprise you.
One piece of advice: Never underestimate yourself, take leaps of faith and do the things that you think you can’t because 9 times out of 10 you can and failure is not failure it's a lesson.
Shannie (2023)
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Mel: If I Could Tell You Just One Thing is a brand-new event industry podcast presented by me, Mel Noakes.
Max: And me, Max Fellows.
Mel: It's a podcast from Elevate where industry leaders write a letter to their younger selves.
Max: And they consider what wise words of advice they would give themselves now, if only they could.
Mel: Our discussion is based on this letter.
Max: Be prepared for refreshingly honest conversation and wise words of wisdom.
Max: Our next guest is Shannie Mears, Co-Founder & Head of Talent at London-based creative agency The Elephant Room. She's a fellow of the Royal Society of Art, former government advisor, Adweek Future Female and 2023 Forbes 30 under 30.
Formerly at GUAP as brand and talent manager, she's created the blacklist, a list of 30 under 30 Black creatives and professionals across the creative industries and now in its sixth year, and a former lecturer at Kingston University. Shannie is a born entrepreneur. Her ability to build, connect, and develop relationships with young people from the wider creative industry drives The Elephant Room’s talent network beyond any traditional agency’s reach.
Shannie is a window into a completely untapped generation and a bridge between opportunity and people. She tries to find those people that are hungry and passionate from the spaces and places the industry doesn't usually look. She says that is where the gems really are.
Shannie says her success story could be that of so many of other people's success stories if someone just took a chance on them. And that's why she's the perfect guest for this podcast.
Max: Thank you so much for joining Mel and me on the sofa.
Shannie: Thank you for having me.
Max: I'd love you to start by introducing yourselves; name, place from where do you come from?
Shannie: My name is Shannie. I am 29 years old. I'm originally from Birmingham, but now I live in London. I run a creative agency that I co-founded when I was 23 with my mentor, Dan Saxby. And that's called The Elephant Room. I'm also a former dancer, which people know but kind of don't know. So, I feel like that's important to say. And I grew up in the arts. So, I'm really into the performing arts, like music, theatre, film, and that kind of stuff.
But now, I've taken a different turn into much more marketing and advertising space, which is still cool because you can use your interest in that space, but I'm not performing anymore. And I'm one of four. My dad died when I was four. But I'm the youngest in the family. And I have three nephews who I love dearly and who are currently pregnant.
Mel: Just a little bit is going on with them. One of the things that comes through your letter and one of the things that Max and I have watched with a lot of interest is the work that you do, in particular around The Elephant Room and the way that you support a lot of young talent coming through the industry and the work you've done around One Month Mentors, and so many of those spaces, and from your letter, it looks like supporting others has been quite a theme that's run through your life. So, tell us a little bit about that.
Shannie: Definitely, I think I feel like, from a young age, I was always really encouraged to speak my mind. At school, school council, Perfect 10, head girl, and all that kind of stuff. At the time, when I was young and growing up, I didn't really look at it as something I could necessarily tap into as a career. I didn't even look at it as a thing that people would click on about me as a character. I just thought it was something I was doing because I enjoyed it or that I was giving my opinion because somebody asked. But then, I think, when I stepped into the advertising space and initially started my internship, I realised how much insight and cultural value it is to express your opinion and, I suppose, bring a lot of yourself to the table. Initially, it started off like that.
And then, when I did that, I realised, Oh my gosh, there are so many other people, like myself, who don't even know where to start when it comes to entering the industry or don't even know how to articulate what they want from the industry and stuff like that. And then, I suppose, I just became—not necessarily a voice—but I definitely became quite invested in helping people discover what that looks like, particularly when it comes to access. Looking at the roots of how people even apply for jobs What does a really good CV look like? Or if I can't write a CV? How do you get the attention of somebody else? How am I building my portfolio?
I think I fell into that space of really wanting to give and wanting to help people understand that it's not you; it's just really hard. You can tap into the ways of who you are and still not necessarily have to compromise yourself. Because I think a lot of the time I talk to a lot of my friends or young people, and that will be like, "Oh, I think I have to be a certain way on LinkedIn to get noticed” or “I think I have to use this type of language in my CV to make sure that that person reads it.”
But my advice to them is always, “No, you actually don't.” You have to just be your absolute self, and you have to share the things that you like and talk about the things that you like, and that's what will make you stand out. I think the more I did that, the more that gave me ideas to do stuff like mentors and start the communities that I've done. When I first moved here, I started an event series called “Girls Let's Talk,” and that was all about just bringing women together, being like-minded, and sharing ideas and stuff like that.
I think all of that has just literally come from, I think, when I was young, but I've now formulated it in a way where it actually works for me as well, in my career, not only giving you this. Obviously, it's a nice thing to do, but you can actually also tap into the skills and ways in which you can help people.
Max: Almost like a bit of an ecosystem, then in terms of people through it. Where you're saying about it and completely value that in terms of that confidence and seeing, you expressing yourself and having the confidence, and it's the confidence piece for me, at what point did you have the confidence to go, ”You know what? I can do it, or I'm doing it. I'm now in a position to help others.” What was that tipping point, I suppose? From you doing it for yourself and thinking, you could just carry on doing it yourself to the point where actually, “I'm doing well enough, or I'm confident enough, in order to actually get something cool. I've gone through something to help others."
Shannie: That's a good question. I think I'm actually not quite sure at what point it was. But I definitely know that after I completed my internship, Dan said to me, “Let's start The Elephant Room.” I think that gave me an immense amount of confidence, because it made me feel like, "Wow." This person really believes in me that I can do something that I've never done before and never stepped into that space before. And I think that the empowerment that I felt from the mentorship and relationship that I had then gave me enough confidence to feel almost like it's okay to fall because I know that someone's going to have my back anyway.
Then, I think, as we started and I learned so much, well, I'm still learning, to be honest, since we've been building the agency, and I think now, I'm just unafraid to fail or to not necessarily get something completely right. Because I know that there are people who I really respect who believe in me, and I think that gives me the confidence to instill that in others. Because I feel like if you wait to be “perfect,” it will just never happen or occur. But the confidence piece, I think it's kind of, to be honest, I feel like it turns on and off. I think the most; I always say, Confidence is something for me that occurs. I'm not always confident. But actually, I'm always comfortable. I've never tried to compromise myself. I've never changed how I speak, dress, or show up, and being 100% comfortable with myself has allowed me to be confident.
Sometimes I don't feel confident, whether that's because I'm just having a bad day or because I'm not prepared for this meeting. I've been told what was going to happen two days ago, and I'm like, What's going on? But actually, I know that I'm comfortable with myself, how I show up, and everything I've done so far. Then, it just allows me to tap into, again, that person who I am and bring my full self to the table. And I think that's also really important.
I'm not really sure when I actually switched on that I can do this, that I can help those people, or that I actually have the idea.
But the one thing that I think 100% empowers me is the relationship that I hold with Dan. That's really empowered me to be safe, do that one.
Mel: It's a really special thing, and it's funny because we obviously share a connection now because I know Dan from my Iris days, but quite a few years ago. But Iris, in particular, was a brilliant breeding ground and continues to be for talent and people spotting talent. But it's really interesting to me that mentor-mentee relationship and the power of that to really propel you forward. Let's be clear here: you were in your early 20s when you set up this agency, having completed an internship.
Shannie: Straight out of university, completing a dance degree. I did a two-month crash course in marketing. Then the way it was set up was that there were 10 agencies that then had to pick who they wanted. Iris then picked me up, and then I was at Iris for 10 months here. After that, it was initially a six-month internship. They had extended it because it felt almost cut short. So they were like, You know what? Let's extend it and still see where we can give you a role. But I think the challenge was that because I was coming from no sort of marketing background, it was hard to put me in a department per se because my skill set wasn't necessarily that of an art director, an account manager, or PR.
I was still understanding what my skill set was. But during that process over the course of the 10 months, that mentee-mentor relationship bloomed, and all the things that I did bring to the table, I suppose Dan was super curious about. Then, after 10 months, he offered me a job. Then I politely declined.
Because I felt like I still hadn't found what it was that I was going to do. Although I felt super, super grateful that they wanted to keep me because that was the aim, I didn't actually know what the value would be to me because I didn't feel like I had found it. I do quite a bit outside of work as well, and because I was doing that, I felt like I would be able to bring all of that into work. Are they going to use me as much as I felt like I could be used? And I was thinking probably not, and not that that's any fault of theirs. But I just think that the way the industry is naturally set up, like when you're someone who's doing loads of different things, sometimes it's hard to let you do all those different things or be multifaceted in a space that has so much structure.
In this case, I didn't have a “direct skill set.” So, they couldn't necessarily just say go and manage that client, because I didn't know how to do that. I didn't have that experience.
Max: It is incredibly brave. I mean, the idea being that you are a group of people you get selected. And the aim of that selection is to do work experience and get hired to get the job or offer the job, and then you turn it away based on the fact that you still haven't at that point found exactly what you're after.
Whereas actually, I think the majority of people would think that I'll take the job while I do that, perhaps I will just get in there. That confidence is something that came through in your letter, I suppose. But equally, what's the contrast? That fear factor, fear of failing, and other things.
You mentioned Dan a few times. I've met Dan as well. He is a top guy. But it's only when you connected with him properly that you had that confidence, whether because of this safety net or otherwise, and things like that. What would you say up until that point or even since then in terms of this fear of failure, and what have been the biggest failures that you've learned the most from in that process? Or that's helped again; feel this confidence?
Shannie: I think it's been a few things, to be honest. I learned quite a bit when I was at Iris, and I learned a lot about just managing structure, processes, understanding language, and presenting ideas and stuff like that. But I wouldn't say I had it in the bag. It was just something I became more aware of. But during my time at Iris, I started the event series "Girls, Let's Talk.” I was also working with my best friend's Ibrahim and did GUAP. And I was helping them build that at the time. Then, I was also writing because I enjoy blog writing, and I was writing for Afropunk at the time and also doing some work for GUAP.
When I was doing all of that, although I was learning loads, I felt I was also doing a lot of things wrong. Obviously, I suppose you could say it was a failure. But it also helped me get to the point where I said no to Dan because I realised there's no way I can stay in this agency and feel good about it, knowing that I can't fully do what I want to do. That was because I was writing; I was going to events. I felt I wasn't very good at all of them. I wasn't very good at all of them because I wasn't focused to an extent. I felt like, not necessarily, that was a mistake, but I'm someone who wants to take on a challenge. I don't say no to very many things.
At the time, I realised that had I maybe put more focus into one thing than another or had I put my all into Iris, maybe I would have said yes, so that I'd realise that it's not necessarily about failure. But effort is really important, and focus is also really important. That made me then realise that if I am going to develop a role for myself, as me and Dan had this conversation, I have to really focus on what I'm going to do. How am I going to really tap into that? Which is when we just spoke about things like helping people and coming up with ideas around communities. That's where I felt like that was.
Prior to that, again, not very many people know this. I used to dance, but I was doing a lot of events in Birmingham. I've given grants and spent all the money. I don’t even know where it went. I literally couldn't tell you what I spent it on; I lost money. There was one where four people came. It was so bad.
When I think about that period, I am so sad. It was such a sad period for me because I was wondering, Why is none of this working for me? How do I apply for a grant? I don't even know where the money's going. I made a budget. Where's it gone? I had literally no idea how to even handle 1000 pounds at the time.
If I look back at that, I think I just didn't have the mentorship or the guidance. I wasn't well-equipped at all with the people around me, although people were encouraging. They didn't actually teach me anything. I think I took a lot of that into sort of moving to London because I realised I'm going to start again now.
I'm going to still be me, but I have all these learnings that I've done over here; I can't do that again, which is why I then tried all these other things and didn't say no. But again, I wasn't great at that either, and I think those were the failures that then made me get to a decision where I felt like if I'm going to go into something, I need to know what it is that I'm going to do. But then it also made me tap back into just myself because a lot of my skill set isn't necessarily organising events or writing. I can do those things, but that's not really me.
If we're going to talk about what I really like to do, it's building communities and building out ideas for how to get communities into a space. Hence, I'd like mentors and stuff like that. I didn't know that at all had I not done all of those things before. Although I enjoy those things, I don't think they're things that I'd say, like, I'm a writer or I'm an event organiser.
I definitely would not describe myself as those things, but they are things that I can tap into. I learned a lot in that process.
Max: Without them, you wouldn't be where you are, right?
Shannie: Exactly. So I think pre-London, but then also, during that process, I was doing a lot of stuff and not fully focusing but failing and learning and realising that this is what I want to do. Because I literally remember being so sad one day. Me and Dan took a trip. We had just left, and I literally said to him that I had gotten our skills. As if I don't know what I'm good at. And he was like, "What? Is that what you mean? You don't know what you're good at.” And I said I don't know what I'm good at. I don't know what my skill set is. I just don't know what that is.
I expected it to be like a visual something I could bring to life, like writing or drawing or people handling or something like that. He said your skill set isn’t that. Your skill set is innate in you. It's how you come to the table and present an idea. It's the things that you formulate based on where you come from, your cultural insight, and the way you think. In my head, I was like, Is that?
I remember a couple of years after that, him coming back to me and saying, Do you remember when you told me you had no skills? I was like, I actually do. And I fully do remember that day, but you've seen now how that skill set comes to life, and right now I see how it comes to life. But I genuinely had no idea, and I had no sight of that at all when I was stressed.
Mel: A couple of questions linked to that because I think there's something really beautiful about that journey of discovery and learning and figuring stuff out for somebody who's clearly multi-passionate and has a broad interest in lots of cultural things. And you've mentioned some of the things you're involved in and are still involved in. I guess that cultivation and that maturity kind of got to the point where, actually, it's okay to learn, and part of this process is me growing, and it's not me going wrong. It's me figuring out where my space is in life, because we see a lot, especially our younger members of Elevate, who I want to get there. I want to be this, and I want to be a director in a year, and I want to go here. When actually there's real beauty in that journey and that growth and taking time to figure out where you are.
But my question linked to that is for somebody who is still multi-passionate about so many different things. I mean, you've only got a look at your, I think we're calling it, X. now we're waiting to see all the stuff you're involved in. How do you maintain that focus and that structure, if you like, to be so involved in so many things and add so much brilliance to so many things?
Shannie: I think now the question I always ask myself when I'm doing something or if I agree to something is: does it align back to that sort of purpose? And it sounds so cliché. Remember what I said before? I do not say no to a lot of stuff. Whereas I think in the past two years, I've definitely been better at being much more intentional. And I think a lot of it is down to: is it valuable to myself? So, can I genuinely look at what I've participated in, contributed to, and thought? I've also learned something in exchange for how valuable it is. So how do I measure that? Is it something that's just going to make me feel good about myself? Because I've helped somebody? Or is it something that's going to support my career growth in terms of my profile? Or is it something that can contribute back to the business? That's kind of how I'd maybe look at that.
I suppose this is a question I can't necessarily always answer on the spot, but is it going to make me happy 3–4 years from now? I think those really are the questions that I asked myself based on that now. And if I look at all the different things that I'm doing, I can genuinely say that in the past two years, particularly, I'm really happy that I participated or that I contributed to that. For example, lecturing, I'm really happy I decided to go and apply for that job or contribute to the students that I teach over the course of those two years or my time at GUAP.
That was such a great learning experience and journey. I made friends that were great for me. When I was doing Girls, Let's Talk, I decided to stop it. Am I happy that I stopped? Yes. Because, actually, that thing gave me room to get involved in other things at other events with other women. I built a great community of women around me. So I'm still feeling, I suppose, the rewards of what that was. I think that's how I see that multi-passion that you just mentioned, because I think I can still tap into different sides of the industry.
I can still be around music and passion and that kind of space if I'm doing some work for GUAP, or I can still be amongst education and academia if I'm doing my lecturing, and those are all things I'm very passionate about, as well as obviously doing my day-to-day, but the one thing that I always say and always do, and me and Dan again have this conversation all the time, is that The Elephant Room for me is like it's just a part of me. It's always going to be a priority. Everything I do doesn't compromise my ability to also be a co-founder and head of talent at The Elephant Room. I'm never necessarily going to suppose that instead of doing that, I'm going to do this; it's actually a contribution to the value that I still bring to the agency.
That's also really important, because sometimes you get that as well, like you mentioned, the younger, Elevate people wanting to be directors. I had that kind of vision for myself when I was about 20–23, thinking, By this age, I'm going to be here; by 30, I'm going to be doing this. Now, I'm just like, Okay, first of all, what's going to make me happy? Because that's really important, but equally as well what is it that I want to experience? And what does that look like? And it doesn't always look like what the director says.It doesn't always look like that.
I think that's really important, and that's how I hold myself accountable to decide what to do while also making sure it's focused so that it always aligns back to my own contribution of myself but also never compromises on what I'm already doing full-time.
Max: Would you say that there is one of those values or those aspects that you pull it back to? How's the best way? Is the one that's more important than any of those others among those deciding factors to you?
Shannie: I think it compromises anything I'm doing at The Elephant Room. That holds a lot of weight. I wouldn't do anything to compromise my, not necessarily my time, but what I can give. I think that's really important to me. I wouldn't necessarily say it holds the most weight, but it's definitely something I think about first before I ask more questions, like, How does it make me feel? etc. It probably does hold the most weight to an extent, because if it did compromise, I probably wouldn't even consider it.
Max: Back to the letter you mentioned, as Mel said, these accolades are 30 under 30 with Forbes, but did you ever think when you were a teenager or when you're willing to dance, things like that, that's where you would be? Did you ever think that that was where you could be, whether you had the vision or the aspiration?
Shannie: Honestly, no. I don't think I even knew what Forbes was.
Max: Have you surprised yourself?
Shannie: I've surprised myself to an extent because, as a child, in school, and in college, I was always quite ambitious. I was actually really into law at one point, and I was literally on every council board. I was literally always debating something. My mom was like, surely you're going to go into law.
I was always writing something. I remember writing letters to my head teacher about the girls toilets and stuff like that. At that point, I genuinely thought I was going to law. So, I remember being in fourth grade and my teacher asking the whole class, Put your hand up if you're going to go to university, and I put my hand up and said, I'm going to Oxford. First of all, I don't even know where I got that from, because I definitely didn't know what Oxford was. But I still remember saying that up until, like, year eight, having this vision in me, go into this Russell Group University. Again, I don't even know where I got the idea from. I must have gotten it from somewhere.
I’ve always been quite ambitious. When I think about how my life has actually panned out, I didn't think it would be this way. I didn't think I would still be able to be as creative as I am, or I definitely was thinking of a much more traditional route to being successful because that's how it was made and played out to me as a child, and again, going into that school or college.
What I've surprised myself with is how much I've been able to just remain me and still, I suppose, sit with the big boys or get onto things like Forbes and be invited to like Downing Street. All that kind of stuff I didn't think I would be able to do as well as I thought that I would probably be a lawyer doing or something like that. But I didn't even know people in the industry did stuff like that or got involved in politics, social politics, or anything like that. I've definitely surprised myself in that aspect.
Max: Do you step forward into those things, lecturing, as you mentioned in your letter as well, the Forbes thing? If they found you, have you stepped forward and put yourself out there for them?
Shannie: I would say a bit of both. Forbes, I applied. That definitely was self-nomination, and that was actually twice. So, I've got Forbes this year, and I applied last year as well. I didn't get it. So, I just went again because I was like, Nah, there's no way. Not in a “big headed" way, but I was like, I know my accolades at this point now. I was like, surely, I can get Forbes because I can do these. So I just went again, and I did that. But things like Adweek Future Female and stuff—they all found me, I suppose. That was my approach? Dan puts me forward for a lot of stuff as well.
Max: Incredible way that a champion has, right? Having someone in your corner. Everyone needs a Dan, right?
Shannie: Oh, yeah, for sure. I always say that empowerment is so important. Particularly, I always say to clients that to retain particularly young people, you have to empower them from the beginning. They'll stay because they'll feel constantly empowered. I think that is a big part of why I feel again, even just so connected to The Elephant Room, because that empowerment piece of the relationship that I hold with Dan is really important.
Again, certain things I've been nominated for, but then certain things I've definitely self-nominated for, and I always encourage that as well. I tell all my friends to self-nominate, and I've judged quite a few things that I always share with my friends and tell them to put themselves forward. I'll reference them. I'm quite a big believer in that. I'd say something like boards and stuff, but the boards that I sit on now
Max: How many boards do you sit on?
Shannie: Currently, I've just stopped being on the boards that were recent. I currently sit on the sustainability and global boards. And then I stopped sitting under the Downing Street board about two years ago.
Max: These are mid- to late- 20s, and you are doing board positions. But I love it because it just smashes that kind of perception of a 60-year-old white guy that's kind of done his career, sold his business, and then floated around to do that.
Shannie: Yeah, I mean, it's still that. But I think for some of the boards that I do, I now think they value difference. So it's made up of a lot of different people and voices in terms of opinion and, I suppose, sectors as well. So I'd say that the one active board that is on right now is the. Earlier, they created a new board for the. Then the Downing Street one hasn't been for a while. I think they all found me or approached me.
Mel: Going into your letter because you talk a little bit there about younger people and empowering them from young, and you obviously talk a lot about your childhood and just some of the changes and challenges that you went through, how much is your childhood and speaking from someone that lost their dad younger as well? I know how that shaped me. So, I'm curious as to how some of those early experiences might have shaped that sort of perception and, I guess, drive to empower young people so much.
Shannie: I think so much. It's funny because I only really realise how much it has impacted me now. I think growing up, you don't realise this. It's just so normal. My dad passed away. Because I was so young, I was sad, but I was four, so I kind of don't really know what's happening. You just know your mom's crying. You're in a white little dress, and you just don't know what's going on. Obviously, you start to process it, but I don't think I processed it until probably then, about at university and hearing a lot of stories about other people with their dads in their relationships and having just a numbness to it because of not only having that experience. But then, equally as well, I mentioned Sue in my letter.
Sue is my sister, and she is severely mentally ill. That happened when I was 10 due to substance abuse. Again, I don't fully understand that you just kind of live in this turmoil of accorded dysfunction of back and forth, conversations you're overhearing, seeing her one way rather than another, and that's continued to this day. And I think all of that has contributed to me either wanting to do better and be better or just wanting to sort of, I suppose, make sure that my mom in particular is happy, because I feel like she's also experienced quite a lot of sadness. She has had to sort of deal with it, but then raise us. So, it's like, you can't really confide in us because we're children. So it's like, she's had to then just fight through that resilience or all of those things. And I feel like a lot of that I got from her.
Because of that hyper-independence, that resilience, that constant need to be strong, all of that kind of stuff, I feel like I subconsciously just picked that up from her, and vice versa with my sister as well, my eldest sister, who is incredible as well but equally building a family. And you see what other stuff she's doing here; you just think that I got to do this. I had to do well. I gotta do it because my family relied on me, or I got to set an example, or whatever that is.
But then, equally, my school and area had quite a big impact on me as well. I grew up in a predominantly white area, which was at the time known as the National Front. If anyone doesn't know what that is, it's like, severely racist people.
Max: Proactively racist.
Shannie: Quite literally, white nationalists We couldn't go outside at certain times. It was quite scary at some points, but then you kind of get used to it and start to live with it because it's just the area that you're in. And then you kind of find the people that you can talk to, and you stick with that area. And it's weird, but you navigate it in your own way. I thought that, again, had quite an impact on me in terms of how I show up for myself because I had so many questions to ask my mom about. Why are these people doing this? Or why is that happening? And surely explain it, but not really. And then, it led me to my own research, my own conversations, and that point of discovery and understanding and learning about what was happening, which is probably why I have an interest in social politics as well, I think.
But equally on the other side, where I went to school, it was predominantly Black and Asian. It was like a duality. And I thought neither was necessarily better than the other. But both of them had their challenges in terms of the types of people and the area, and you realise that it all comes down to who you are, what you do, how you feel, etc.
I think growing up, I just had this constant in my head, like, I'm not going to be here forever. I can't. I was like, I was never going to settle in Birmingham; I already knew that I loved it, but I saw so much that I thought, probably shouldn't have been. I was like, really young.
But it actually gave me a real desire to just fight for more and want more, and the one thing that I'm really grateful for about my mom is that she never ever did that. She always encouraged me, even if she didn't understand it. She always encouraged me that if I wanted more, I should go for more, whether that be the university I picked, the subject, the types of things I've gotten involved in, or the dancing performances I was doing. She was never like, Oh, I don't really think you should. It was always, you know what? I don't know, but if you like it and it makes you happy, then go express yourself and don't stop. So I think all of those things are contributing factors to that.
Again, from my dad's perspective and my sister getting sick and stuff, I think it just made me realise this life is so short. So many things can happen, and you just have to make them the best way you can. I think my mom's a really good example of that. Overnight, I feel like I saw her become the man of the house. By the man of the house, I mean, I remember my dad driving us everywhere. I remember my dad picking us up. And then I just remember him one day not being able to walk, unlike my mom, who had to do everything. And I was like, What's going on that we have this? Are we rotating the house? I was so confused, but then I realised he was obviously just getting sicker. He died of cancer. So he was just getting sicker.
As he deteriorated, my mom had to step up, and I remember seeing that dynamic just shift. I still hold the view today; you just never know. Anything can happen. People change. Life changes, and sometimes it's no one's fault. It's just the way life turns out. And I think I've learned that. And I think I've just had a lot of luck striving to just do stuff if you feel like it or say if you believe in it or if it's really important, and I think it stems a lot from all those things that I'd seen growing up, but now I can talk about it and articulate it. Also, I suppose I can process it for myself. As a teenager, I didn't really know how to process it. In my early 20s, 20, 21, 22, did I ever really want to talk about it? It was just something I didn't really know how to articulate, but now I feel we have a much more open environment in my family.
It just feels a lot more safe because now, I'm like, we can talk about it. We feel okay talking about it, and everyone has their own ways in which they've dealt with whatever we've now gone through as a family, and we've stayed together.
Max: Amazing. That's taken you up to now. What's driving you forward? What are you doing with it all for now? What does that kind of, I say, end goal look like and what kind of years are to come to you now?
Shannie: Wow, I'm pregnant. Definitely, I think I'm really excited to meet the Shannie version of a mom. I don't know what she's going to be like. But I know that now there's a real intention of being a great mom, a great role model, and hopefully giving the best absolute life to my baby. But then also, again, I didn't think that approaching that would be how it would be. Even just a year ago, again, I was in Amsterdam, so the intention wasn't even to be back so soon. But again, life just happens.
For me, again, it might even sound cliche, but the goal is really to be happy and to make sure that I'm happy with the decisions that I've made. That's what success is for me, and I want to make sure that I never lose that continuous spark to want more. More could be that it doesn't necessarily have to be a work-related business. It could just be from a family perspective or how I choose to parent or learn and stuff like that, and I think I'm really excited to see that version of myself. Then to see what that value brings to the business as well, because we're still so young as a business. So, I'm still really excited to grow that. I've done six and six-and-a-half years as my early 20s approach their age. Now, I'm going to go into my 30s as a mom, but I'm still doing the work I do, and I think that my perspective on a lot of things will be different. So, I'm excited to see what that looks like.
Max: It's amazing as an answer. If I've ever asked this with people, I want the business to be here, sell it, exit, and live in Dubai, but it was really refreshing and interesting about that. It's about you as a state, more than anything else. What does success look like in 5–10 years? It's in a certain state. That's really interesting.
Shannie: Definitely. I think I'm big on my state because I've just learned that I can't do things when I'm unhappy, stressed, or genuinely can't. I can't do it. I just can't contribute. I can't bring myself to do anything if I'm in that state. So, I've learned that.
Sometimes I have to let go because I am still, to an extent, thinking that way. But I've learned that, actually, what is my mental state? Where am I as a state? Before I push into those spaces. And I think I learned a lot about that growing up as well, seeing the impact of mental health from a family perspective, both from my sister, but then equally what that does from a secondary point of view, because I mean, naturally, we all have people that care about us.
When we're not happy or sick, it then affects other people who are watching us, and you don't really want that. So I think I'm also mindful of that as well, making sure that when I'm in a state of happiness, my best around me is also happy, and people around me are happy. Not that I have to make sure that I'm happy for other people, but he's making sure that actually is the environment I put myself in, and to an extent, I'm also accountable for that in terms of the state that I'm in. And not necessarily, I suppose, putting myself in a “hard position” because I've not thought about how I feel, etc. I think I tried to do that a lot—reflect, reset, all that kind of stuff—because I'm aware that it doesn't just affect me; it also affects others as well. And I think that's also important. I think that's why the answer is so specific about that.
Mel: The other thing I loved about your answer was the excitement of what comes next after a baby. I think so many people in our industries, especially women, think it's less so for men to go, “Well, can I still do this? If I have a baby?” And what would that look like? Will that have to change?
I love that that's not even a question. You're like, “I'm going to have this baby. It's going to be amazing, and then more amazing is going to come after.” It is better than a question, and I think that's really refreshing. And I think it's so important for our industry, especially females in our industry, and the men around us to support that is to realise that new normals can be formed. And it's not an either/or; it's figuring out what that looks like when life does change, because life changes for all of us. Actually, we've had some brilliant guests talk about their experiences as parents, and I am thinking about Jonathan and talking about how he had to shift. And you don't often hear that from the father's side. I loved the fact that you were just like, “Bring it on” having this baby, and then there's a whole lot more to come, which we don't doubt.
Shannie: Yeah, I think it will be fun. I think it'll be hard, but I'm just excited because I don't know why. Why is it going to be... So I'm like, here we go.
Mel: New adventure.
Shannie: Exactly. To your point about the women in our industry, I think that's also really true. And I've had a lot of those conversations, speaking to new moms, speaking to moms who have got like teenagers, and speaking to women who are super senior, and I have asked all those questions: did you feel like you could do it? Did you feel supported? How was it going back? Some people have had 2-3 kids, and they are like, I've got so much anxiety going on maternity. I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can't even be active for so long.
But I think there's a beauty in talking about it because all my conversations have actually been quite positive, and even if someone hasn't had that challenge, they've overcome it. That's what I feel gives me that confidence because, of course, things are going to be hard, but actually, there are some things that are going to be really great. It's a natural way to be. So I think the new normal is 100%. I truly believe that.
Max: I suppose that leads quite nicely then on in terms of the advice that you've been given and receiving and things like that and asking for. As part of this podcast, obviously, the premise of it revolves around that letter. But equally, what's that one piece of advice that's so good that you need to pass it on?
Shannie: One piece of advice would be to never underestimate yourself, because I think nine times out of 10, you probably can do it. The doubt will be there, but just move past it because you can't look at failure as failure. But actually, it's just the lesson. For me, that would be my number one piece of that “don't underestimate who you are.”
Max: Amazing.
Mel: Love it. Thank you so
Max: Yeah, brilliant. Love the chat. Thank you so much for joining us.
Shannie: Thank you for having me.
Mel: You know, what I loved about that chat we were talking about was, just as she was leaving, the serenity and calmness. There's not any of this sort of aggressive ambition in there. It's this real, gentle ambition, if that makes sense. This real sense of, because I talk a lot about this to a lot of people I work with, like what does success look like? And you mentioned it really nicely, and you wrap it up really nicely in that sort of state. She has real Zenness. that really comes across.
Max: I'd like to think that I'm quite driven by the rest of it. But I was just really compelled by how it's just a different type of ambition, and it doesn't take anything away from the goals.
Mel: Not at all.
Max: Even bigger than, more monstrous or what have you, but weaving in a sense of happiness and almost this state, and people talk about state a lot, and obviously Matt did as well in our Inspo sessions. But it's this incredible positioning and this non-negotiation. If it doesn't fit with this, and she talks about things that fit in with those values and stuff, it's a “no,” and to turn down the job that you've been working towards at the end of it. Because of that, I just think it is so refreshing, and the confidence it takes to put yourself forward to lecture others, put yourself forward to mentor others, and set up these other community-based projects, when I would have thought, actually, in your 20s, you're still just discovering yourself.
Mel: But I think it came across so well. Obviously, we're completely biassed, given what we do. But that power of the mentoring relationship is obviously inside that relationship, and I have sort of reflected on my own mentor relationship with Steve and the sort of power of that and somebody believing in you and where that can take you when you don't know where you're going or what that looks like, but to have somebody else see that in you and be able to take you places you never dreamed of. That's why we do what we do. That's what Elevate is all about.
But the other thing I really loved was her honesty about the challenges, because I think a lot of people see Shannie and go, Oh my God, you're an overnight success. And I could never do that. And it's all been raising. It's all been easy. And she talked really openly and honestly through it. It wasn't always a rosy childhood, in terms of the challenges she faced and the things she had to go through quite young, yet she always made the best of it. She was looking at the lessons, taking strength from them, and watching things go on. But it was certainly not this sort of overnight success; everything has been perfect and everything's been easy, and yet she has leaned into taking the positives and finding the strength and how to take it forward. I thought that came across really strongly as well.
Max: She mentioned some of these failures, and failure is quite a harsh word. But she shared this sense that they're never failures; actually, they are lessons. And I love that, and I follow that same sentiment entirely. But the fact that it's okay and that you don't know the end goal, and I think there's so much pressure on this mindset that when you leave school or even in school to be what you want to be, then go right, that's the course you have to tread. And I don't know many who have chosen that. And she's obviously an exceptional dancer, and that was her thing for quite a while, while she then started writing about her passion. So the fact is, she's now running a successful agency; she's involved in three or four other projects, sitting on boards, three boards and things like that; it's amazing. And perhaps she never thought she was going to be there. But she did have a vision that she was going to be something quite good—quite great, even.
Mel: And we've seen that many of the podcasts now haven't taken that sort of path where you think that you're going down and then are open enough to take some different paths and different directions, and that can really pay off in the end. We saw that with Michael; start with SJ. We've seen it again today; there's some great examples, and I think there's so much pressure on, especially younger people, to have it all figured out, and it just goes to show that flexibility can really pay off. I mean, what a great conversation that was.
Max: Really different, but incredible and refreshing in the same way. Amazing!
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