Episode 12
STEVE SAYER
Senior Vice President and GM at The O2
ON THIS EPISODE OF ‘JUST ONE THING ’:
Our guest on this episode is Steve Sayer, Vice President and General Manager of The O2, the world's most popular music and entertainment venue.
Steve has worked in the sports and entertainment industry for over 20 years with a career path that includes various roles at Manchester City Football Club, AEG Europe, and The O2, where he currently heads up the senior leadership team ensuring The O2 remains both world-class and fit for the future in a dynamically evolving consumer landscape.
Steve says he’s spent the best times of his life working in both football and music – talk about being blessed! He says life is for living and there is so much to live for. Be as present as you can be, soak it all up and take it all in.
Watch Steve on YouTube or listen to him on Spotify or Apple podcasts
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Hi there Steve aged 21 (1995),
Wow 21 again at least for the purpose of this letter. Where do I start??
Let’s start where you are at today… you’re in Manchester and you’re soon to graduate. Most of your friends will head off to London, but you’ve decided to stay in Manchester and are about to start working for Manchester City at Maine Road. Not a typical graduate job for sure, working in football merchandising, but football is one of your two main passions, alongside music so good on you. Let’s not forget you went to Uni in Manchester for the music scene. It’s not where you’re from, it’s where you’re at… right! I know in your head you’re thinking do this for a year, it will look great on your CV and then off to London you will go… but little do you know it will take another 18 years before you make that move, and the decision to go this route means you will spend some of the best times of your life working in both football and music. Talk about being blessed!
So what advice would I like to give you?
Firstly, slow down, take your time and get to know yourself better… life is indeed for living and there is so much to live for, but you know so little about it or yourself at 21, 28 or even 38. Start with self-awareness. It's ok that you don't know yourself now, because in time you will, and you will work out it’s an ever-evolving process. We are ever-changing and nothing stays the same, so embrace that, be present as much as you can and enjoy the ride. If you figure it all out before your 40’s then good luck to you, but if you don’t, just accept that’s the way it’s meant to be.
On the work front, my best advice is don't be afraid to fail - in fact embrace those difficult moments. That's how you learn and grow and as painful as it might feel, you will look back on those times and see how far you've come today. They're pivotal and life-defining in many ways, but don’t take it all too seriously. There is more to life than work. Maybe a little less need for external validation might go a long way too… what do you need that for anyway… maybe that's a question you might want to ponder on. Worry less about what people think… it really doesn’t matter much. What really matters is how you feel about you. Build that inner confidence and see what you can do… that’s when the magic really happens. Also, trust your instincts, you are creative and energetic, and you know how to deliver results… that will become a superpower. But in time you will also work out the process is more important than the outcome. Keep that in mind. It’s not always what you do, it’s how you do it. That’s culture building and culture in a workplace is vital. You will work in a variety of cultures, and you will see the difference. When you get to lead, focus on creating an environment where people thrive, grow and have fun. It makes all the difference. The results then look after themselves.
On finding a tribe I guarantee that you will meet some amazing people, at different stages during your life. Collect them and cherish them. It won't always be clear at the time why they come into your life, but come they will and they will be important to you and you will be important to them. Energy attracts so look for the signs. Quality over quantity is the mantra. Gravitate to positivity, kindness and laughter.
You're going to have some fun times throughout your adult life… embrace those opportunities and experiences, they make you feel alive and in time you'll learn that these moments are the ones to value, the ones you value. All those amazing experiences with Man City and more recently AEG and The O2. Truly priceless. Be as present as you can be and soak it all up. Take it all in.
On a more personal note from time to time maybe your mental health won't be where it is today. You're probably thinking what on earth is mental health because no one talked about that in the 1990's… not that I can remember anyway. Well just think of it as looking after all of you and finding some balance. Work hard, play hard and rest whenever needed. Embrace your anxiety when it comes along… as the saying goes it too shall pass! Find ways to cope… if you hate public speaking, write a speech, or make some notes. Practice does make perfect. If you’re struggling in work, talk to a friend. Open up, even just a little and you will find it will help. Simple stuff really but it works.
Also, reinvention is good… in fact, it’s healthy. And keep doing it. Life imitates art and all of that and art is always changing and evolving. Of course, authenticity trumps everything, but you will learn that you change your style, and your interests will evolve and that is good too. Humans are conditioned to evolve, it's quite literally in our DNA. That can be part of your authenticity.
Final point to reiterate… Do the things that give you joy and listen to your heart, not your head. That's one of the most important pieces of advice I can give you. Your older self (me) will only thank you for it when I reflect on my life.
Yours lovingly
SS (2024)
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Max: Our guest on this episode is Steve Sayer, Vice President and General Manager of The O2, the world's most popular music and entertainment venue.
Mel: Steve has worked in the sports and entertainment industry for over 20 years, with a career path that includes various roles at Manchester City Football Club, AEG Europe, and the O2, where he currently heads up the senior leadership team, ensuring the O2 remains both world-class and fit for the future in a dynamically evolving consumer landscape.
Max: Steve says he's spent the best times of his life working in both football and music. Talk about being blessed. He says that life is for living, and there is so much to live for. Be as present as you can be, soak it all up, and take it all in.
Mel: Welcome to the podcast, Steve Sayer.
Max: Welcome.
Steve Sayer: Thank you.
Max: So to our audience, could you please introduce yourself and the role, I suppose, and a bit about what a day looks like in the world of Steve Sayer?
Steve Sayer: Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me.
So I'm the SVP. That's my level, my title, if you like. I'm the general manager of the 02. I'm effectively the managing director in other walks of life. I would be the CEO of that business unit. We are the sort of crown jewels of AEG globally, sort of venue portfolio. The most successful venue in the world, I would say.
We sell more tickets than any other arena in the world. Last year, we sold over two and a half million tickets for arena shows.
Mel: That's just Taylor Swift.
Steve Sayer: Well, she's outdoors this year, but sorry, that's 600,000 more than the next best, which is Madison Square Garden in New York. So we are streets ahead. What I would say, though, about the O2, and I always say this, is that the O2 arena is the beating heart of the O2. The O2 is the campus. It's the whole thing. It's everything under the tent, and up at the O2, which goes over the tent, is our roof walk.
I guess my role is to do all the stuff that you would expect a managing director of a significant business like that to be doing, whether that's overseeing strategy, full responsibility for P&L, or overall being responsible and accountable for safety and security, but it's kind of like running a mini-city.
We have over 10 million visitors a year that come to the O2. We've got the arena. We've got our shopping district. We've got our entertainment district. We got up at the O2, and, yeah, so I guess that's my role. That's what I'm accountable for.
I mean, day to day, it's just everything, from focusing on the team of people to making sure that the culture's right. I really believe that this comes from experience. It's the culture within a company that really drives the business.
So spend a lot of time with our people team and senior leadership team working on how we create an environment where people can thrive. It's supporting all of the directors in their respective functional areas.
We talk a lot about the fans, the bands, and the brands, so it's quite a nice way of thinking about our business.
The fans are all of the guests, customers, and visitors that come to enjoy an experience at the O2, so that could be coming to shop, to dine, to climb, or to come to a show at the arena, which is what we are most well known for.
The bands, of course, the artists, and I guess it's that whole live music ecosystem of artists, promoters, and agents that we spend a lot of time working with, ensuring that our diary is full, like, I say, the busiest arena in the world. If we have a full arena, it drives and sustains every other part of our business.
Then the brands really are not just our brand partners, like Virgin Media O2, but all of the partners and sponsors, as well as all the other stakeholders that have a vested interest in the success of the venue. So that could be local government. It could be the Royal Borough of Greenwich. It could be the emergency services. There could be other stakeholders.
As much as I'm spending a lot of my time focused on the team and managing the people, I also spend a lot of my time on stakeholder management and managing upwards. That's being the O2, and having the profile that we've got is an incredible responsibility for me and all of the team. But with that comes a lot of interest and focus for our business. So, whether that's the board here in London, for Asia, Europe, or even in LA.
We're a privately owned company, and so we're sort of managing all of those dynamics. So I'd love to say I spend all my days just booking artists and hanging out with musicians. From time to time, I do get to meet them, and that's nice and enjoyable.
Max: We got our stats of selfies there.
Mel: He's the best person you've met. Was there anyone that you met that you were a complete fanboy and just totally expected to buy?
Steve Sayer: I mean, we sort of come across so many. Actually, we had the Laver Cup tournament a couple of years ago, which, if you remember, was Roger Federer's in his tennis tournament, and he retired, and he had that sort of famous match. I think he was playing a doubles game with Nadal. They had the big bromance, the soft tears on the court. The game went on until 3 in the morning. It was a bit like the Australian Open currently, with Djokovic playing till the early hours. And on the final day of that, we did a little presentation to Roger when we had a first-time headliner or an event that was sort of more than just another band coming through on the fourth or fifth time.
We did that recently. We presented the award to them. Half a million tickets were sold, and more shows were booked at the O2 than any other artist I met. It's a nice little world. They were wonderful, but meeting Roger was surreal. Those are musicians, and with my career at Manchester City, I spent plenty of time around Premier League footballers and was in the presence of Maradona, Messi, and all these people, but I also met Roger Federer. And I'm not a big tennis fan, but he's just such an icon.
We had to do this little award. I had to do a speech and sort of present it to him. And we had a little bit of a laugh and a joke, and he asked us about the 21 Club. So we have a, we have a 21 club. So any artist, this is in kind of homage to Prince and the 21 Nights back in 2007, any artist that now plays 21 Nights, and take that one of those, they've done 39, we give them a key to the house.
They get a key, and they become a part of the 21 Club. So, we have an installation backstage, and as you're walking to the stage, the artists can sort of see it—the younger artists coming through. It's quite aspirational. We do get agents and promoters asking, like, How close are their artists to the 21? but Roger had played the O2 way more than the 21. So we're thinking, Well, what can we do for Roger? because, really, the 21 Club is for music artists.
So we basically said we're going to name a dressing room after him. We are going to, and we have done. We haven't actually done the installation yet, and he just loved it. He just thought it was such a funny idea. It was just the idea that he could just rock up to any show and have his own dressing room, which is not, strictly speaking, what's going to happen. So that was quite a good story.
At the end of a long tournament on Sunday evening, he sort of took the time out, not just to receive the award, and we spent 10 minutes in there having a nice conversation with him. So, that was quite a good story.
In your interaction, when I talked about being blessed, that's what I meant, like you have to soak those moments up, and it's not just me at my level; it's lots of the team getting these amazing opportunities to see artists that they love to sort of be around, which is just a very joyful experience. And that, for me, is being blessed. You've got to do all the hard work and put the grind in, but actually you get the results, personally, professionally, whatever, financially. But it's those things, I think, that really make a difference.
Mel: It's one of the benefits of our roles, isn't it? I do think it's interesting. I go to universities and lectures sometimes, and I think the kids are all like, You're hanging out with artists; you're doing all the brilliant stuff. And I'm like, I'm here to dump in all your dreams. It's actually that you're fighting fires in the back. But reality is those moments. One of the incredible things about our industry is that you get to do those sorts of things and have those opportunities that knock, and if you're an accountant working in a finance institution, you're probably not going to have those sorts of opportunities that soak it all up and really enjoy it as part of it.
Steve Sayer: And we are here. We are fortunate. And that's what I keep saying, like when I walk into those every morning, and to say Man City of the Etihad, I'd walk in, and every day, mostly, but certainly, O2, I've in the tenure, every day I walk in, and I'm excited about what's going to happen. I get a buzz, and I think hopefully that plays into the culture, because if the leader of the organisation gets that buzz and conveys that energy, it can be really powerful. You can be terrible at your job, but actually, that's a good starting place.
Max: At least we're excited about it.
Steve Sayer: Yeah. So, there are many stories like that. Even today, I can't tell the artist, but one of the most famous artists in the world, not Taylor Swift, climbed up at the O2 to do some media with a media owner here in the UK, and that will go out later on in the summer.
I didn't meet that artist, but the team involved in that just had the opportunity to be around that artist, and for them, they're not going to take selfies. They're professional, but just to have that experience. And that's what I said in the letter: Try to be as present as you can. And I will say that I think the event industry, generally, whatever part you're in, is a fun industry; it should be fun. It should be joyful. It should be fun to go to work. It shouldn't be drudgery, and that doesn't mean it's not hard work or stressful, but I think that's the way I look at it anyway.
Max: I think you're completely right. And sometimes taking a step back and actually having a look at it, you have a good day type of thing, and it kind of blows the week apart in terms of how exciting it is and stuff.
Just before we go into the letter a bit more and thank you for doing that, if you were to try and encapsulate into kind of three key things as to what differentiates the O2 from Madison Square Gardens, who've got great teams all the rest of it, or any other kind of venue in the world, what would you say that's down to, apart from Mayor Sayer, king of the O2 town, which I'm now going to name you?
Steve Sayer: It's difficult. What sets the O2 apart? I think in a relatively short space of time, the O2, we've been open for 17 years, so not a long time, in that sense. We've built up this incredible history of artists that have played the venue, from Prince’s 21 Nights to Led Zeppelin reforming for the first time in many, many years—some of those early Rolling Stone shows that took place at the O2 and the Laver Cup. I think we've been able to bring these. These are amazing, iconic events for London and the O2. We've become synonymous with these incredible residencies.
Last year, Madonna's six nights and Elton John's 10 nights again. We've built up this incredible history that feels like we've been around 50 or 60 years. We've done it in under 20 years. I think the building itself is iconic. It's just such an impressive, iconic, and unusual building, really. I think that plays a part. I think as a team, we're constantly pushing ourselves to be better. Deliver the best guest experience; deliver the best artist experience.
A great example is a recent one: Olivia Rodrigo, one of the biggest pop stars in the world right now. It's all about the sort of uniform that they wear, which is sort of synonymous with purple. We rolled out a giant purple carpet in our main foyer. So for the Brits, we have a red carpet. So we've rolled out, and we just did that. We obviously did it with almost the permission of the artist. We wanted the artist to be cool that we did that, but we wanted to do that for her and, more importantly, for her fans.
And little things like that just make a massive difference. Obviously, the fans are coming to Olivia Rodrigo. They're going to have a great experience at the O2. They can see one of the best shows of the year. It's those little things. We turned our Amex lounge into the Guts Club, and that's one of her famous albums and one of the two albums, so we turned it into the Guts Club.
The artist was so engaged, and she was signing off on what type of tacos. Was it a hard shell, or was it a soft shell? And this was obviously done through the agent and manager, and I think the artist is a big deal playing the O2. It's a statement of rivalry for those up-and-coming artists.
Another great example, another recent one, was that we hired in a mount marching band, so a bit like a pop-up, really, sort of unexpected, like a marching band, but playing, take that covers.
Mel: They were absolutely brilliant.
Steve Sayer: They just appeared in, like, different parts of the arena, just to get the atmosphere going. And there was one brilliant clip that our communications team missed. I saw it on Gary.
Steve Sayer: Gary Barlow snuck into the band one day because he saw it and thought it was such a great idea. He put the uniform on. He snuck on it, and he put it on his Instagram story.
Mel: That's brilliant.
Max: And what games are kind of dressed up?
Steve Sayer: These are the brand-famous moments for the O2, and again, no other venue does what we do. And to be honest, we've taken some of our learnings from. I think the football clubs have done this sort of stuff brilliantly for years. Obviously, that was my background. And I think we've sort of taken all of them. How do you really create a total, sort of 360-degree experience, not just the show itself, all of those other touches, and it's definitely those big multi-night runs where we try and do that sort of stuff?
Max: On to more about you, rather than the tent: how did you find writing the letter to your younger self?
Steve Sayer: I'm sure you hear this a lot. I found it quite cathartic, quite therapeutic. Most of it was the first car. I did a couple of little edits, but it was a bit like I sort of did what I would do for any other presentation, or any of it. I was like, Okay, well, what are my key messages? What would I actually want to say to them? So I kind of bashed those out really quickly—just bullet points. There's seven or eight.
And then I started to write the letter around those. And actually, I think I might have scratched one of them, but most of them ended up, and no, it was good; it was enjoyable; it was cathartic. It got me thinking about the journey that I've been on and the journey that I'm still on, and I think that's one of the key messages in there—that you're always arriving. You're never there. And I think it's a growth mindset, right? If you always see something ahead of you, there's always growth and learning.
I wasn't always like that, by the way, but I definitely am now. And I think that was the bit to sort of remind myself of the journey that I've been on and of the different kinds of pivotal moments that might have shaped me as a human and as a person who works in the event industry. I enjoyed it.
Max: Would Steve then believe where Steve is now?
Steve Sayer: Part of me, I think, probably did, and part of me, I think, would have lacked the confidence to sort of... there was a bit of me that, yeah, was kind of, like, a bit cocky, a bit arrogant, but I think that was just the front for lacking a bit of confidence at times.
My very first job after graduating was not as a graduate. I was on minimum wage, just working in the merchandising department at Man City, and it was almost like a cottage industry. Then it was so different from what Manchester City is today. But I was strategic in the sense that I wanted to work in football or music after I graduated.
And I made a decision through the university: I didn't want to go down what was called the milk round in those days. I don't know it still is where. In your second year, you'd get wheeled out to all of the KPMGs and all the sort of big firms and all the FMCG brands and maybe even the agencies back in those days, which I can't quite remember. And I was like, Oh, that's not for me. That's all a bit corporate, and plus, I was having too much fun at university to sort of bother with all that.
When I did graduate, I definitely had in mind that I wanted to get into football or music. I was like, How do I engineer that? And my friend was writing for the program. So, I think luck comes into it to a degree, but I guess I think there was a bit of strategy there. There's a role going on; you should apply for it. So I did, and it was really just me and my boss at the time, and we went to the merchandise partner. That was it. It was everything about designing kits. We were running the marketing campaigns. We were sort of working in retail, but not again. It wasn't what it was today.
But I don't; if you remember, there was when Liam and Noel Gallagher did the photo shoot for the Man City Club catalogue—that sort of icon. It was the enemy, both wearing the Bravo Umbro shirt. So I was sort of involved in that. So that was, again, it was like, whoa. Here, I am sort of involved in this project. I wasn't at the actual photo shoot, but I was involved in, sort of, rolling out the catalog. And this is brilliant. But pay wasn't great, really, not relative to perhaps what I could have been earning if I'd gone into a more typical graduate job.
But before I took the job at Man City, I did have an interview for a market research company because I'd done geography as it was my degree. And I picked the job because I like geography, and I picked Manchester University because I like the music scene, so that was literally as simple as that.
I was good at geography, but in geography as a degree, sort of, where do you go with that? And actually, statistics, which is a bit boring, is quite a big part of geography, particularly human geography. So if I had taken this route, we would have taken me in a completely different direction. I went down for this job in London at a market research company. You know what? They're one of the big firms, I think. But I can't remember who they were today, but I was just like, Oh, this is boring. This is not me. Maybe a bit of arrogance was coming out of me as well at that point. But I was just—this isn't me.
And that would have taken my life in a completely different direction. A lot of my friends moved to London straight after graduating, which I think is quite common, but a few of us did, and not many of us stayed up in Manchester. So the rest was history, I guess.
Mel: So 21-year-old Steve goes up to Manchester University for a geography degree and gets a job as a merchandiser for Manchester City. What goes up and back home? So was this the path that your parents thought you would take? How did the conversations go? Well, I've done this thing, and I'm now going to go over here and work for that. What were those conversations like?
Steve Sayer: You know what it's like with parents. I don't think they really understood what I did, but when they worked out, they could come up to Manchester City, to Main Road, it was the stadium, and have some hospitality once a year, and sort of see me in my club suit. For them, there was just incredible pride. They were like my brothers, two brothers and sisters, all of whom have been really successful in different careers, but more in law, finance, or whatever. And I think they were like there was a sort of pride there. And I think it's the same. They don't come to the O2 very often, but just in my role, I am now putting on the figurehead, and everybody knows me, or the security team knows me. And I think when they're like, Oh, you've done all right,.
But no, we didn't really have that sort of relationship where we would talk about careers, and they were like, obviously, we would talk about stuff, but they weren't pushy or pressuring me into one thing or another. I think they generally just wanted me to be happy, and that was probably enough, but yeah, no, they certainly enjoyed the perks that came with it.
Mel: Your job at Man City, obviously, is something you talk about in your letter. It took you 18 years to come to London. So what happened in those 18 years in Manchester? You went through quite a roller coaster, quite quickly.
Steve Sayer: It's so unusual now that I've only really had proper employers. So I am not talking about having a paper round or working at McDonald's.
Mel: We're not going that far back.
Steve Sayer: So I've had two employers, really Man City and AEG Europe. It was a long time, and again, I think it was probably what people look for today. I was getting better, though. There were opportunities. Maybe there were a couple of years where I stagnated a little bit here and there, or I was in a role and I wasn't.
My first boss, when I was in the sort of merchandising area, left, or he went on to JD Sports after about a year. The J and D of JD, John and David, were directors of Man City. Actually, they were the owners of the club back in those days. So I was just kind of like, Okay, well, it's yours then.
So then I was in charge of this department, which was only really me, and then I hired an assistant, but so sort of learning about business and merchandising and marketing, I guess. Then I did my marketing studies at night school, university. I think it was just a little bit of professional development.
Then, my first mentor I won't talk about names. My first mentor, who sort of came into the club and did a lot of work with John and David, was sort of brought in. Was a communications expert. That was his. But he was brought in to sort of look at the whole sort of business commercially. And he said it, and it was quite literally true. I had this office that was like a broom cupboard above the shop, the club shop. And he was like, he opened the door one day, and it was like, Oh, who are you? And I was like, Oh, I'm Steve, and this is what I do. And we got along really well. And then he became my first mentor. And he was really good for me. He sort of developed me, promoted me again, and gave me more responsibility. And then…
Max: Was that an official capacity, or was it more so that it just kind of almost happened?
Steve Sayer: It's sort of a bit of both. He was a club official. He started off as a consultant and sort of came in and was part of the leadership team. I guess you were the board of directors, as you would call it in football.
Then he was great. I learned a lot from him. Then suddenly I had merchandising and ticketing, Man City, memberships, and the junior blues, which are still going to the fan club, which also entailed looking after the mascot on match days. I mean, it sounds sort of silly when you talk about it, but it was all these great different facets, and actually, in the very first good story, the very first Moonchester was a guy called Chris Sievey, who sadly passed away. He was Frank Seybottom. If that's something you've probably seen before, before your age, but some of your older, older audience will remember, a massive comedian had this sort of character, Frank Sidebottom. The Moonchester comedian had this sort of character, Sidebottom. So he was Moonchester. I worked with the mail order team, then started to do a little bit more of the corporate hospitality side of the business. This is over a number of years.
I had a great story then, and I was currently my exact age, but at my first Premier League meeting, I was sort of sent down to talk about internet stuff, exactly what it was, but broadcasting rights, and I was great, and I was a bit nervous because it's like going to my first Premier League meeting, and all the clubs are represented. And as I later found out, they all sit around the table in alphabetical order, starting with Arsenal.
So I came in. I was late. I was stressed and a bit flustered, like the train had been a bit delayed. I messed my timing up. It can probably be a bit like that. So I sort of came in. I was super nervous at this point after reception. So, where do I go? And then you literally, but back in those days, it was slangist the gate, or somewhere around there, you sort of opened the door and, like, the meeting stopped.
Everybody looked, and these are all senior figures. It wasn't the commercial directors, because two commercial directors met, and then it was the shareholders, the chairman, and the chief executives. I was about 28–29. I was like, What do I do? I just saw the nearest chair. So I sat down, just to sit down, and then the noise came back up again, and they started talking.
Now, sort of, I got my shuffled papers around. It's really silly, but it was before we went all on tablets and phones. Then I looked across, and I saw this place card. It said Arsenal FC. And then I looked along again, and I saw Aston Villa. And then it was probably like Birmingham. And then I glanced to my left, and it was David Dean, one of the senior figures in football at the time, and I'd sat in the wrong seat. And I looked round, right, round the end of the sort of boardroom, like this oval boardroom table, and there was a gap, so I had to wait until the break then to go and get my actual seat.
So my career went like that. I took responsibility, and then it kind of stagnated for a bit. I've had times where I've had responsibilities taken from me. We've had restructures. I've been a part of some that have been beneficial for me. Some have been more difficult. Maybe you moved into a sort of, what you might say, a site, and I think some of that, at the time, was difficult when you're in those sorts of difficult places professionally, but you do draw on it. And I remember, actually, that when I came, after 17 years of lots of change, Abu Dhabi ownership got involved, and we had a great experience with our Abu Dhabi owners. We spent a lot of time in Abu Dhabi in the early days.
Max: Sorry to interrupt, but the biggest challenges of those 18 years—perhaps the biggest peaks and learnings and challenges.
Steve Sayer: Well, I mean, the peaks were like professional peaks. There was succeeding in certain things, getting promoted, and taking on more responsibility. There was a sort of riding along with the team a little bit. Because when you work for a football club, the sporting side of it is a big part of it. You have very much become part of that machine.
The more challenging times, I think, were like moments where the club was sort of growing and new owners were coming in, a lot of money, foreign money, a different outlook, looking to really change the culture, sort of being a part of that change. And sometimes that change is not necessarily overly positive for you as an individual. I think in the long run, it was, but I think some of those moments were difficult, sort of just handling that.
I had talked about, sort of, my first mentor, another great mentor of mine, who almost became a mentor that I stopped like in the early days. This individual was brilliant for me again. He saw potential in me, and this is at point just before around that sort of Abu Dhabi ownership got involved, and he promoted me to quite a senior level, but I was, like, completely out of my debt. I didn't really know what to do or how to do it; I didn't get the support, and he turned a little bit. I know to talk about this publicly too much, but someone said too much.
But I think he got frustrated because he saw all this potential that wasn't being realised, but what he didn't understand, and this is one of mine, was that I needed that support and coaching to help me through, and that's something I've been very mindful of with my team.
Whenever I see somebody, you can tell when someone's struggling, and sometimes it is their ability; sometimes they're just not performing, but often they just need that support, or they need that confidence built up, or they need the right training and development coaching.
That was the toughest moment, that sort of period, because it was; it went from such a high being promoted into this great role, but to be fair, it did set me up for the next few stages of my career, because it took me up to a level where it was a little bit like sink or swim, and I probably sunk for a year, and it probably took me another 6 months to 12 months to sort of build myself back up in a slightly different role with a bit less responsibility. But then, when I got my confidence back, I could start to sort of go again.
Max: Would you say that because of that, and obviously because of that consistent progression, you talk about the development side of things? Obviously, from our perspective, something we're hugely passionate about on the learning and development side, are you a believer and a fan of staying in business longer term and growing with it? Or, at the moment, there's a lot more of that: a 2-3-year move and benefits being probably financially driven, but the two against each other, which camp are you in, and obviously, given your experience and as now an employer as well, what do you think and say?
Steve Sayer: I don't know that I'm in a camp. I think it's harder these days. I think there is that sort of push and pull people want, particularly in their 20s and early 30s. They want that progression and development. They want the pay that comes with that. They want the recognition. Everyone's got slightly different drivers. I think it is harder. I think what I did was quite unique in a way. It's almost like old school, where you'd stick with a company, or my dad, like, worth the council all his life.
I think I'm certainly not in the camp you want to experience. What I was, I think, was the reason I stayed with Man City. As long as I did, there were a couple of periods where, again, when I look back on it right now, it's like maybe it was a couple of years where I was coasting a bit or in a bit of a rut or whatever.
But generally, I was learning and growing in different roles and at different levels. So I was getting that progression. It just happened to be fortuitous too, because the club was getting investment at different stages. It was becoming a different beast, in a way.
One of the most challenging conversations I have, and certainly my direct reports have with that, is that I've been here for 18 months. What next? What next? What next? And as high-profile as the O2 is, we're not huge; we've got 190 permanent employees. We're an SME.
AEG is a big company globally. But again, we're not Nike. It's sort of harder to move around. So that's one of the challenges that we're always facing. How do you help people grow and develop? By looking from different angles, you can grow and develop. It doesn't always have to be about the job title. Obviously, finances always come into play, but, I mean, if I were in my position, would I do anything different? I don't know. I feel like my journey has taken me to an amazing place. So I'm not sure I would change anything, looking back.
Mel: We'll come back to some of the challenges, maybe later, but you talk a bit in the letter about your superpowers being this sort of creativity and energy and where it's got you. So how has that borne out in your career? And how do you help, I guess, build the culture, taking some of those things and learnings into account, when you've got a big team but a relatively small team given the scale of your organisation?
Steve Sayer: One of my superpowers professionally is delivering results. I've always believed that almost every stage, even in those trickier moments, will always deliver results. And I think what's maybe changed in the last five or six years is my outlook on how you do that.
I think, probably in my younger career, I was just driven. Whereas now I kind of want to deliver results, but I've learned the importance of actually how it's the process, how you go about it, is equally as important as a result. And actually, being cool is not my work. There are different ways that you can deliver those results.
We do something in AEG; it's called this sort of print DNA, and it is about your unconscious motivators. And you have a major and a minor. And again, guess what? My major is all about delivering results. Principally, that's what it's about. My secondary one is very similar, quite driven, the sort of typical leader type person.
I remember being in this workshop with some other senior leaders, and someone said, Oh well, these are three. That's the number; I'm guessing they're not good collaborators. And the facility was like, Oh, no, threes are the best collaborators because they know. Collaboration helps them get results.
So I don't know if that answers your question exactly, but I just think it's important to create that environment where people thrive and the best ideas don't come from me or from senior leadership, or the best ideas come from people right across the business, just getting together. I think it's about creating an environment where people feel safe and come up with ideas that they want to come up with. They're encouraged to do it. I keep coming back to me and my past, but I think this is relevant.
I think I was in my earlier career; it was almost like one of my drivers was afraid of failure. It was almost like the reverse. It was like I was so scared of failing that I'd be like.
Max: Why?
Steve Sayer: I don't know where that comes from. Is it childhood? Is it conditioning? I've got a sort of different outlook now, and I think it's not encouraging people to fail but creating that safe space. Failure is how you learn, right? And how you grow often.
As long as we take the lessons from it and move on, let's not repeat the same mistakes. And I think that's a big part of driving and creating culture. You kind of create that environment where people feel like putting ideas forward, and if one of their initiatives or the project doesn't quite deliver, you don't go after them; it's like, yeah, you have. I will challenge, and I'll ask direct questions. I'll try and understand what happened, but do it in the right way, in a way that you're really trying to grow as people together.
Max: Your letter. What was really interesting about it is that with all of those that we've had on, and there's no right or wrong way of doing this, it tends to be more weighted towards the journey of milestones and talking about this. And it was almost the complete opposite of yours.
It was about 20% a quick recap of between 21 and now, and 80% was much more around this quite self-aware advice, learnings, and lessons, and quite reflective. Obviously, I think it demonstrates a journey that you've been on as well. But I am just really interested in that kind of reflective nature.
You talked a bit about, I suppose, things like anxiety and some of the other lessons Mel mentioned as well, around the joy factor and stuff. What of those lessons has had the biggest impact in the shortest period of time, would you say, as the leader of a large business?
Steve Sayer: That's a good question. I mean, I think, as far as the letter itself, if I sort of start with that, I think that's probably just where I'm at right now. I wasn't self-aware in my 20s and 30s. As I look back now, if I'm being constructively critical, I wasn't like a complete zombie, but probably wasn't as present as I could have been in personal life or in professional life, and so sort of the self-awareness bit, which has been something that I've worked on in the last 10 years and just become more conscious always, is something I think is important, and I think it's one of the most important because it's emotional intelligence, right?
I think it starts with self-awareness because empathy and all of those other sorts of qualities and traits that go into that sort of emotional intelligence of being a good human being sort of stem from self-awareness, I think. And I didn't know that. I didn't really understand that in my 20s and 30s. I didn't really get it.
We do 360s, or I get feedback, and I guess over time, you may build up a little bit of a picture. But I think it's only been in my 40s that I've been a bit more reflective. And I think it's sort of that honesty about yourself, being self-aware, being conscious of how you interact with people and the effect you can have on them, for good or bad. We do a lot of work with Matt Bolton, and one of the sessions we ran a year or two in my leadership team right up to is sort of like what we call a setup, just that how you show up in an interaction, a meeting, or a little chat by the coffee machine when you first walk into that is so important because it sort of sets the scene. It sets the tone for yourself and for the people around you.
I'm conscious of that all the time, so I think that's the most important lesson, if you like, to learn. For me, it was just that bit about self-awareness, and I don't know why; I just didn't really get it in my 20s and 30s. I just wasn't conscious of it—how I came across, how I was perceived, or how my behaviours were. I'm not saying they're bad behaviours necessarily, but I wasn't really aware of them. And that's been a big shift for me.
Max: You also then mentioned touching on that anxiety piece and knowing that it's a very well-used phrase at the moment, and I think most people feel some level of it in some way, shape or form, again, with the profile that you now have, and you've done a great job in the last few years of really getting his face out there as well, with interviews and talks like that.
How has anxiety, I suppose, shown up for you, and how have you navigated it, managed it, and, I suppose, not beat it? You live with it, right? But how have you, I suppose, dealt with it?
Steve Sayer: Yes, it's an interesting one. Anxiety, I think, has probably been present for me since childhood. But it would maybe manifest itself more in my early career, in stuff like public speaking. I would just read it. It would just be, like, even at university, I didn't enjoy it in a slightly fun way. I think with stuff like that, it was just the more practical stuff, like speaker notes and writing speeches and being okay, referring to bits of paper and not feeling that's a weakness; we can't all be Steve Jobs and just get up on stage. And some people can. I can't do that. I enjoy public speaking now. The presentations? Yes, I've done all the courses and all of that.
But the most important thing, which I still say to people today, is, Just work out your opening line. Just work out; how are you going to open it up? Whether you want to tell a joke or you want to say something quite dry or something factual, just have that clear in your mind.
I find that that's a real sort of yes; there's all the breathing, but that really settles me down. It just gets into the
Max: A Stabiliser.
Steve Sayer: Yeah, a little bit. I think just over time, with a bit of maturity—or, I think, it's a bit of a well-used phrase now—but I am leaning into it a little bit, just being okay with it, which is easier said than done, by the way. It's easy to say that, and I don't know whether this has come with experience, whether it's come with a bit of maturity, or whether it's come with more responsibility. I care a little bit less about that stuff these days. I don't care.
I still care about what people think. I think I would be lying if I said I didn’t, but I care a lot less. And I think, for whatever reason, probably in my younger career, I was a bit too overly concerned about what others are thinking or how I'm coming across, and I always sort of talk to my two daughters, and we're always sort of talking about this sort of stuff, and they are like, Dad, shut up. They don't want to talk about it at 13, or maybe 16.
So just care a little bit less. I think there were just so many more resources around when I was in my 20s, and I wouldn't say I was paralysed by anxiety, but it was definitely something that I had to sort of work with.
There were no resources; really, no one talked about it. You wouldn't talk to your friend about it. Not, not; this was 25 years ago. You just wouldn't. Whereas I think now that even though I can come on here and not, I'm certainly not going to be the first, but sort of talk about mental health and you can still be incredibly successful, like it shouldn't be debilitating, there are resources talking it out all of that sort of stuff plus the more practical sort of techniques that are available as well.
Max: How would your girls describe you if I were to meet them?
Mel: That's dangerous, asking how I felt.
Max: If I met them in school or something, that sounds even more weird, but no, let's say they're talking to their friends. They're asking, how would they describe?
Steve Sayer: I'm not the typical dad. I'm just not like any of the dads at school.
Max: Busy day with Roger Federer.
Steve Sayer: They think I'm a bit of a celebrity. When I turned it to pick up my daughter from a sleepover a few weeks ago, it was like she and her friends were all waiting. They wanted to see what the boss of the O2 looked like. It was ridiculous, really. They think I'm fun. I don't know if they would use these. They think fun and playful. We mess around. We have a laugh. I think that's the overriding thing—that I'm fun and I'm playful, and that's probably.
Mel: You talk a bit in your letter, Steve, around this idea of working hard, playing hard, but also resting, and this idea of presence. How much did becoming a parent play a role in that or not? Was that part of that discovery? Did that happen before? How much has being a parent played into that?
Steve Sayer: I think when they were young, I was good with them. We'd always be messing around and doing silly things and building dens, and I was in my happy place with them, as most parents are. I think that as they've got a bit older, that's where maybe some of the other things have started to come across just because I'm now like, so the anxiety one's an interesting one. So you're talking to a teenage girl who might be going through something like going to secondary school when COVID hits. I think I've learned more about myself as a teenager, or nearly a teenager, than maybe I did when they were younger. That's definitely been a really positive experience for me.
They've come a little bit of a mirror, don't they, to your own childhood as well. Well, I think they do. So that's another thing that you've kind of got to contend with.
Mel: And it's helpful to have an audience at home that is 16 years old that you can be like, What's cool? Now, tell me what the lingo is. What should I be following on TikTok?
Max: Which artist should we be?
Steve Sayer: Definitely, they would poo poo me. But in my music, the noise is pretty good. It's my main passion. And because I'm around people at work all the time, even way more than I do, I'm always exposed to different genres and different artists.
Particularly, it's good. Like, what does a 15-year-old like? So whether it's Scissor or Kendrick Lamar or just knowing what they're listening to or what they're chatting about, not necessarily. She's not at the age where she's sort of going out like she is going out to see bands and gigs, but not necessarily at the age where she's really going out to discover, like, the new artist yet, but that'll probably come.
I mentioned in my letter a little bit as well, like, sort of the reinvention bit, particularly around new technology and fashion trends and cultural trends and stuff. It is, and they do give me a bit of insight into it. I know it's almost old hat now with stuff like Tiktok, which I'm not a regular user of. I've got to be honest. I should really just be speaking purely from a professional point of view.
But some of those applications have sort of started coming through that they're just going to use, and I get to see how they use it and what they're looking at, and they're showing me stuff. It's definitely good from that perspective.
Max: So we've got the last couple of questions, or the last question or so, before we kind of ask the biggie about it. Where are you on your trajectory? We talked about this, and then the ups and downs of careers, and that the highs and lows and things like that are now a high point; perhaps, where is that on the trek street, and the kind of, Steve says, of the future, almost?
Steve Sayer: I've still got loads more to give and loads more to learn. So, am I content at the O2? Am I enjoying it? Am I getting stretched? Do we have some big plans and projects ahead of us? Yes. But I definitely want to keep on growing and developing.
That question you asked before about what I thought at 21 I would get, I did have, like the ambition was there. And I think when you've got ambition and drive, that can take you a long way, and that's still in me. I don't know exactly what that looks like, but I definitely want more over the next 10–15 years. There's plenty more to go after personally and professionally. It will be, and would have to be, sort of an organisation or continue growing with AEG. But the culture and the opportunity. What was exciting when it came to the O2 was that you already had this incredible, famous, and successful number one.
But the challenge I was almost given was, and certainly as the GM of the last 5–6 years, is, how do you make it even better? That's in my letter. But that's something that is one of our big challenges when you are the number one.
Max: Constant evolvement.
Steve Sayer: How do you like Man City with the four titles? Sorry to bring that up for anyone who's not a Man City fan, but to keep going again and again and again each and every year and getting bigger and better and more successful, whether that's a better fan experience, a better artist experience, or driving the commerciality of a business, which I'm tasked with doing. We've done that every year, and so that's a good challenge.
But also, I'm doing this sort of stuff, mentoring, which I know you guys do an amazing job with. I've enjoyed doing that over the last few years as well, giving something back to the industry and helping people—a little bit of purpose, I guess. Because I've had a great career, and hopefully we'll continue to have a great career, I kind of feel like I want to share some of that.
Max: Last one for me, and I'll be quite curious: has your definition of success changed as you've come up?
Steve Sayer: 100%. I think 20 and 30. It was all self-centred. It was always, What can I do? Where can I be? What can I get? Then you start to think it's more about the team. Now, it really is. I've said it a few times. I want to see the team thrive at the O2. Yes, the experiences that come with it are brilliant. I enjoy that, but that's when I see our talent on the stage growing and developing and coming up with amazing ideas. When they'll come in and say, Oh, Steve, we're doing this, and what do you think? I'm like, wow, that's brilliant. Even though you knew you were doing that, the buzz that they get out of that.
That's success for me, because I think if you get all of that right, we'll deliver the numbers because we'll figure out how to get the artists in and how to make more manic money. We'll figure out how to deliver a better experience. But it's actually all of the stuff on the ground, behind the scenes, that is, to some extent, the fun stuff.
Mel: You asked the question I was going to ask, which I guess leads us to the final question, which I get to ask this time, which I'm really excited about because he normally asks it: What's that one bit of advice that's so good or so bad you have to share it?
Steve Sayer: You caught me now. I think it was actually the mentor I talked about who saw the good side, the light, and the dark. But remember this individual sort of saying, which I did take on board at the time, because I was probably promoted to this new role, and it was like, Just treat work like a business school.
Take what you can out of it and learn as much as you can. It's certainly quite selfish, but you didn't meet, and it just takes all of those opportunities to learn and grow. And I think that's it, I'm sure. There'd been other bits of advice, but that was the one that sort of stuck with me, and I do think about it as much as being present and really engaging in your work.
It's important to me, but in terms of advice, I just view work as an opportunity to grow. And I think what he meant was to grow in a business sense. I would probably then take that on. I would say that if I gave that advice now, I'd actually use it to grow as a human, like, just take everything you can out of it, but not in a selfish way, like giving back as well. So, that was the little bit of advice that stuck with me.
Mel: I think it's absolutely brilliant. Certainly, that's what's come through talking to you: that you've never done learning and growing, and even when people are listening and going, oh my god, it's the GM of the O2, like you've reached the top, that actually they're still learning and growing and excited about what that journey holds. You're not done yet.
Steve Sayer: No, not at all.
Mel: It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on our sofa.
Max: Yes. Thank you very much.
Steve Sayer: Thank you for having me.
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